loft insulation and grants

[irina]

Dear PPUK members,

Perhaps some of you have had similar experiences, or can give me some advice. A few weeks ago I spotted a notice that the local council was heavily subsiding purchase and instalation of insulation. I immediately contacted them and was put on to a list for their prefered contractor to contact me about a survey. Today I chased up on this, since I had not heard anything for ages. Turns out:

- The council has a contract with just one particular firm of suppliers and installers of cavity and loft insulation (is that not a monopoly, even if just on a local scale?) which leaves us with no choice if we want to benefit from any grant scheme.
- This particular firm, according to their website, deals with two, and only two, types of loft insulation, which they call "a wide choice", namely "mineral fibre quilt" (I take it by that they mean rockwool) and "blown fibre systems" (mineral and cellulose warmcell).
- My understanding from what I have read on this forum and the technical advice published by SPAB is that whatever insulation we put in the loft it has got to be breathable. Ironically, the council's own publication on "Eco-refurbishment and the historic environment" advises to "use natural materials (wool, hemp)". I might be wrong, but I don't think rockwool is particularly breathable, and certainly not ecologically sound, since apparently the manufacturing process requires cooking the stuff at temperatures of around 1600 degrees - how much energy does that use I wonder. I have no idea as to the breathability or not of the "blown fibre" stuff, but since it is apparently made from loose granules it would get blown all over the place in our loft every time there is a high wind or someone opens the loft hatch.
- When I enquired if we could top up the grant so to speak by paying the difference between their product and our choice (something like thermafleece) I was told that's an absolute no-no. Apparently, as I was also informed, grant schemes have to cater for the 90% of people who live in straightforward homes and don't need any special requirements.

Having said all this, could the learned folk on this forum perhaps shed some light on to the issues of breathability, materials and loft insuslation?
Is rockwool or blown fibre breathable or not?
Does it actually matter what stuff you put up in the loft as long as you provide adequate ventilation for the rafters (e.g. by getting the roofing felt to 'sag' between rafters, as another council person told me today)?

For the record, around a third of the loft space is currently covered in 50mm of thermafleece left over from another job, otherwise no insulation whatsover. Our house isconstructed of squared and coursed rubble (ground floor) and brick (second floor). No damp proofing either modern or old. Ceilings in all rooms are lath and plaster. Half of windows still original (single) glazing, other half double glazing (in timber sashes and installed by previous owner I hasten to add). Suspended timber floors throughout. Roof was re-tiled in 1980s using whatever roofing felt then available, one half tiled in what was left of the original pantiles, the other half in double roman tiles. Gas central heating off condensing boiler. All fireplace openings remaining and venting to chimneys but grates (except for one) and surrounds hacked off by previous owner in furious stint of modernisation - so no usable open fires. Despite my best efforts still plenty of draughts from doors and windows, so plenty of ventilation in house I'd say.
Your thoughts on loft insulation materials and roof/loft ventilation much appreciated.
irina

 

[skier-hughes]

I looked at the grants and they cover only a certain sq footage, and will top up any existing insulation to a certain level (200mm?) at one fixed price. So, if you have no insulation and an 80sqm loft space you get best value, or if you pile up your existing insulation and then put it back on top!!!!!!!

You can get lots of choice by contacting different people, as the grants are dealt with by people like energy suppliers and you can even buy the deal at B&Q.

Otherwise, it is still cheaper to do it yourself
http://periodproperty.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9827

No idea on the breathability etc.

 

[AMc]

I was a bit perturbed to read in an article in the Guardian (probably) about Tesco(?) getting into offering loft insulation that the grants and subsidies work best if you have an uninsulated roof space. Once you have a certain depth there is no subsidy to get you to the recommended 270mm and the 'offers' disappear.

It occurred to me that the (slightly dishonest) thing to do would be to remove any existing insulation before the site survey, wait until the subsidised installer has put in the full 270mm then put what you had left back on top to get the maximum you can. Obviously the mess removing fibreglass out of and back into the roof space would be significant - When we finish the building work I will put a top up layer into the main roof space myself. It'll probably be more expensive than the cheat, but the grant money should be spent on those who need it more and can afford it less than me.

 

[MdB]

It occurred to me that the (slightly dishonest) thing to do would be to remove any existing insulation before the site survey, wait until the subsidised installer has put in the full 270mm then put what you had left back on top to get the maximum you can.

Dumm-de-dumm..... whistles quietly with eyes in the air and all the existing insulation bagged up in the garage leaving an uninsulated loft....

However, due to the smallish size of the loft (31m^2), I can put 300mm+ of mineral wool down for around £100 which is half what it would cost to get people in to do it.

 

[Feltwell]

My parents recently applied for free insulation under the Governments "Warmfront" scheme. Their new house is about as ordinary as you can get - a 1950's bungalow with a clear loft space, totally uninsulated. As they have a registered disabled person living in the house they should get the insulation itself and the installation costs 100% covered.

In the end, they've got so fed up of being cold waiting for the "approved contractor" and the administrators of the scheme (who after 2 months cancelled their application for no reason!) that my Dad has gone to Wickes and bought the insulation to do it himself.

 

[Penners]

My elderly parents have also had their loft recently insulated under the "Warmfront" scheme. The contractor had to come back several times to complete the job, but all-in-all it seems to have been done pretty satisfactorily, using straightforward rockwool.

I've always been a bit puzzled by the issue of breathability in insulation. As I understand it, insulation works on the principle of trapping squillions of pockets of still air. Therefore - it seems to me - insulation that allows air to move through it is likely to be less efficaceous.

But I expect I shall get shot down.

 

[skier-hughes]

My parents had their loft insualtion topped up and cavity wall insulation done under the scheme, for free with no hassle.

I wondered whether I should get them to come and live here for a bit, just long enough to insulate the loft Mind you, when I spoke to a company about what grant I could get they did want to quote for cavity wall as well, even though I told them there were no cavities, he just couldn't work it out. :roll:

 

[DaveBrigg]

I looked at grants about 18 months ago. We only qualified for a partial grant, which was fair enough, but that left the final cost of getting the approved contractor in quite a bit more than the DIY option.

 

[Flyfisher]

Ditto, last year.

 

[plumbers mate]

Warm Front has been criticised on a few radio programmes for being a money pot for the contractors who hike up their prices.

 

[Penners]

I can never hear the name 'Warm Front' without thinking of Nurse Gladys Emmanuel. 8)

 

[plumbers mate]

I hope Mrs P doesn't read this forum....

 

[skier-hughes]

Warm Front has been criticised on a few radio programmes for being a money pot for the contractors who hike up their prices.

From my calculations when I was in B&Q, it wasn't that much more expensive to have 200mm fitted to 80sqm than buy it myself and fit. Of course where they do win is that the same price is charge if you only have 50mm fitted to say 30sqm, but I suspect this is the governments fault for setting up silly rules.

 

[Penners]

I hope Mrs P doesn't read this forum....

I'm sure you can predict her reaction if she did...


:roll:

 

[Penners]

buy it myself and fit.

To be honest, I would pay just about anything not to have fit my own insulation. It's the most horrible job, and it takes days to get rid of the itchy fibres.

 

[skier-hughes]

I opted for the sheep wool and it's kinda nice putting that down, although as it is in the upstairs room at the moment it was quite easy to do, plenty of headroom, walking on floorboards etc.
If I was to go conventional, I'd have opted for the fitting.

 

[irina]

Thank you for all your responses so far, and sharing the different experiences. I will not raise my hopes too much when the surveyor comes round from the local "approved company" - basically it sounds like in some cases the extra costs these companies have added on for their labour means the total cost to me comes out the same as if I just bought the material directly and laid it myself.

But speaking of material: are there any do's and don't's on material? Is it ok to use rockwool in a house like I've described?

Never mind that I hate the stuff and my personal choice is thermafleece, which we've already used for a small space above an extension. Problem is the various grant schemes (and I've contacted several schemes now, shopping around a bit so to speak) are all offering rockwool and rockwool only ... I wonder how much profit the manufacturer of rockwool is going to make over the next few months, as thousands of UK homes get insulated, and whether the rockwool people are going to plough some of their no doubt enormous profits back into some scheme ....

irina

 

[Pford75]

Rockwool is fine in terms of using as an insulation. Some will point out that it doesn't have the best ecological credentials, but it's still better than no insulation at all.

With the size of our loft space, we simply couldn't afford thermafleece...so we opted for Rockwool from an approved contractor. The fitters did a great job and given the size of the loft (and difficulty in access) I calculated that if I had done the job myself (difficult as a 1 person job)...and allowing for my time to purchase the rockwool etc. I would have lost 2.5 days of my time and saved only £220.

As an aside, do check the insurance situation of your contractor. Some home insurance schemes require you to notify your insurers and it would be better if the contractor has full insurance cover, just in case they put a foot through the ceiling! You need to ensure that anything will be replaced on a like for like basis.

 

[Penners]

With the size of our loft space, we simply couldn't afford thermafleece...so we opted for Rockwool

Likewise.

It's an unfortunate fact that in just about any sphere you care to mention, the natural, environmentally-friendly product is so often more expensive than the man-made, planet-pillaging alternative. Sometimes one can swallow the extra cost for the sake of one's conscience, but at other times it just becomes prohibitive.

 

[DaveBrigg]

A local farm park has a small flock of sheep. At a demonstration of shearing last year the farmer explained that the price he would get for the fleece was so low that they would probably be thrown away. Has anyone tried making their own sheep's wool insulation?