Loft debris

[Redeye]

We bought our house about a year ago which, to cut a long story short, is a 1920's conversion of a late 1700's barn. The roof was renovated about 6 years ago and is causing no problems.

But, the loft is a bit of a state. It has been insulated with rockwool type evil stuff which is probably a good thing as stone walls aren't the best for keeping heat in. The ceilings beneath are plaster and lath, but on top of that is about an inch of rubble/leaves/dust/general junk which also seems to encourage local wildlife to visit quite regularly. Is there supposed to be this much junk up there? I'd quite like to tidy this lot up a bit (the wiring needs sorting out anyway) and board some of it to make it a bit more useable as a storage space but I don't know enough about this sort of house to know whether things like this should be left as they are?

Sorry for the daft question - this is one of many things I'm not quite sure where to start with on this house. Any help/advice appreciated.

Thanks,
Dan

 

[Nemesis]

Yes I'd clear out all that debris. Make sure your insulation is thick enough to meet current recommended standards.

However, be wary of boarding out this space unless the ceiling joists are up to the job of carrying a load, or you will get cracking in the ceiling below.

 

[Redeye]

Thanks Nemesis.

Good point about the ceiling joists bearing load. I think they'll probably be okay as most of this house is pretty bomb-proof but I'll have a much closer look before I do anything.

Does anyone know how thick or what spec the insulation should be?

 

[Nemesis]

I think the current recommendation is ten inches. If it's Rockwool you can add on top of what you have. The really nasty stuff is glassfibre, so take care in handling that, but again if it's already in place then disposal into landfill and replacement may not be too sound a plan either environmentally.

Ceiling joists in lofts though, unless your roof space was designed as an attic, are frequently not thick enough to support much weight and will flex. Our roof structure is massive, made to stand great sandstone slabs originally, but the ceiling joists are relatively unbeefy and walking around on them causes some flexing and cracking.

 

[Penners]

Redeye - what section are your joists, what sort of wood and what distance do they span?

I'm no expert, but if you post this information some of the more knowledgeable contributors should be able to tell you whether they're safe to be boarded and walked on.

Why do you call rockwool "evil"? It's actually remelted lava that's been spun like candy floss. Sheep's wool is obviously more environmentally friendly, but it costs a lot more.

 

[Redeye]

On closer inspection the joists aren't as sturdy as I'd originally thought. They're 2" x 3" section, spanning about 15 foot, spaced at 19" centre-to-centre. Not entirely sure what wood it is - most of the rest of the house is oak, but I'm not sure about these. Instinct tells me that they're not going to support any real weight, but the storage space for lighter stuff would be very useful anyway.

 

[Penners]

I think your instinct is correct!

 

[NT]

Rubble is best removed, otherwise it may encourage the ceiling to fall down. Realise some bits of L&P ceiling might not be soundly atached, so be gentle with the shovel.

Your joists are not adequate for any storage at all. Its a wonder they're still holding that much rubble up. If you want to flor it you'll need to put additional wood on top of the joists to make the now composite beams much deeper.


NT

 

[NT]

If you want to flor it you'll need to put additional wood on top of the joists to make the now composite beams much deeper.

this is fairly easy


NT

 

[another_richard]

After clearing out the heavy stuff (man) from our loft I hired an industrial strength vacuum cleaner to catch the 100 years of black dust.

 

[Lime]

Just one thing that I think I should point out through the bitter experience of a family member cleaning out their loft: don't remove the keys or plaster curls that wrap around the laths in the ceiling.
They hold the ceiling up. :shock:

 

[Redeye]

Rubble is best removed, otherwise it may encourage the ceiling to fall down. Realise some bits of L&P ceiling might not be soundly atached, so be gentle with the shovel.

NT

That's what I thought. This is going to be one of the single most revolting jobs I've ever done - the rubble is one thing, the dust is something else. I'm presuming this is dust from some kind of mortar that used to be part of the roof and it just never got cleared up when they renovated the roof. It's horrible fine white stuff - i think i'll find a good source of face mask before i start. and get an old vacuum cleaner 'cos i don't think the missus will be too happy with me breaking ours.

Your joists are not adequate for any storage at all. Its a wonder they're still holding that much rubble up. If you want to flor it you'll need to put additional wood on top of the joists to make the now composite beams much deeper.


NT

Do you mean just lay another 3x2" beam (for example) on top and then nail/screw/batten them together? This would be quite straightforward apart from the considerable challenge of getting 15ft beams into the loft in the first place. I think a new loft hatch would be in order. Although given that the current one is only 17" wide, it's only because I'm rather lanky that I fit through it anyway!

 

[piper]

I have just finished a similar job. I've put new 3"x2" joists across at right angles to the old ones - roughly the same number, at similar spacing - and screwed them at all the intersections. A tedious job, bit it's made the ceiling strong enough to take weight without flexing. Three of the old 4"x2" joists have also been replaced, as they were rather worm-eaten, and I think not precious original fabric. As mentioned in a previous post, the old ceiling has actually come down, and my next job is to re-do the lath & (lime) plaster. Seems foolish to the rest of the world ("why not plasterboard?"), but I feel sure greeted with sympathy by the contributors to this Forum.

 

[piper]

No need to do the new ones full length. Most of mine are in two overlapping pieces. And, yes, part of the job has also been doing a new hatch. Also, of course, there is currently no plaster.

 

[Nemesis]

We are planning to put some joist hangers above the existing and some joists and board over that in part, to give storage, although I think really what we should be doing is clearing stuff out. The more space you have the more you keep.

Oh the 'horrible old white stuff' is probaly lime mortar, from original torching.

 

[Gervase]

Galvanised sheet-metal joist-hangers are a godsend for this sort of work. Once you've toughened up the existing joists with a securely bolted stiffening piece on the top, put new trimmers on hangers like ladder rungs between the existing joists at modern centring (as most older joists tend to be farther apart than is desired for load-bearing, as well as being thinner).
If you intend to use the space for anything other than occasional storage, however, you should inform the building inspector, who will have his/her own views on what is the proper course to take. Some will be happy with trimmers on joist-hangers, some will want elaborate herringbone strutting and others will turn round and say "It can't be done."
If you don't intend moving in the next seven years or so, however, it's really your call as to whether to bother them or not.

 

[Nemesis]

Maybe that's the call of the Grim Reaper really - in which case we won't care!

 

[NT]

That's what I thought. This is going to be one of the single most revolting jobs I've ever done - the rubble is one thing, the dust is something else.

You can leave the dust there if you wish.

If hoovering, most hoovers get clogged in seconds by building dust, you need a cyclone, or one specifically designed for building dust.

and get an old vacuum cleaner

might work for 20-30 seconds.

Your joists are not adequate for any storage at all. Its a wonder they're still holding that much rubble up. If you want to flor it you'll need to put additional wood on top of the joists to make the now composite beams much deeper.

Do you mean just lay another 3x2" beam (for example) on top and then nail/screw/batten them together? This would be quite straightforward apart from the considerable challenge of getting 15ft beams into the loft in the first place. I think a new loft hatch would be in order. Although given that the current one is only 17" wide, it's only because I'm rather lanky that I fit through it anyway!

2x3 would get you 6x2, thats good for storage. Lay it on top with glue and screw it down all along its length. You dont need full length timber, but do butt the sections firmly up against each other to minimise the introduced weakpoints.

Dont put the new wood at 90 degrees, as that will only give a fraction of the strength gain compared to deepening the joists.

One gotcha with this is if your existing wodowork is bowed. If so the lime ceiling wont be amused by you bending each joist upwards as its all screwed together.


NT

 

[worms]

and get an old vacuum cleaner

you need a cyclone

I think this was exactly the job that drove Mr Dyson to think of a way of doing it better! Old Dysons are now quite cheap and the spares are easy to get so it is quite feasible to buy a non-working one, fix it up and save on using the household hoover.

 

[Nemesis]

Actually I find that the Dyson filters clog up very rapidly with anything too dusty - so we have an old vacuum with a dust bag for that!