lock conumdrums

[thiambal]

I am soon to put in an order for my new front door. I have started to mull over the secuirty options.

The current horrible modern wood dront door has a yale night latch and a mortice dead lock. The latter I fitting when I moved in to bring it up to insurance required secuirty standards.

Does anyone have any thoughts, experience, guidance, opinons on what should be on a late victorian house door which will balance the modern security requirements without making the door look horrid. I would dearly like just to fit a rim lock but this means tiresome locking and unlocking each time the door is used and will I imagine not meet the insurance requirements.

 

[Andrew Bodenham]

When I fitted a new door in a Victorian property recently I faced the same decisions.
I fitted a mortice deadlock to cover the security requirements, with some nice reclaimed escutcheons for the keyholes. A repro rim sashlock provides a latching function for the door and looks the part - there are some very nice cast rim locks available with various embelishments which look better than the pressed steel type. Some salvaged brass handles completed the job.
Rim locks are very primitive in terms of the security provided, so in this case the locking function is not used - the separate deadlock takes care of that.

 

[Penners]

tiresome locking and unlocking each time the door is used

Our front door has a 5-lever mortice lock as required by the insurers, plus a simple roller latch with lever handles.

I reckon it takes me all of 4-5 seconds to insert the key in the lock and turn it. Tiresome?

 

[Moo]

[/quote]... it takes me all of 4-5 seconds to insert the key in the lock and turn it.[/quote]

But first you've got to remember which pocket the keys are in, and riffle around until you've found the right one, and then drop them on the floor, and pick them up and to some more riffling.....

 

[Penners]

If you're on your way back from the pub, maybe....

 

[thiambal]

A repro rim sashlock provides a latching function for the door and looks the part

I like the idea, but doesn't that mean someone can open the door from the outside by simply turning the handle?

plus a simple roller latch with lever handles.

Excuse ingnornace, but what is one of the these? Is that like on a UPVC door?

 

[Penners]

plus a simple roller latch with lever handles.

Excuse ingnornace, but what is one of the these? Is that like on a UPVC door?

I have no idea whether this would be used on a uPVC door - but NOT in this house! Our front door is oak, as befits our station in life (old, gnarled and with a tendency to be brittle).

A roller latch is just like any other, but the tongue (sometimes called the tang) , instead of being tapered solid brass or steel is a roller. So when it's slammed, instead of the tongue having to scrape against the edge of the securing plate, it rolls over it and springs into the socket. It has a smoother action and lasts longer without wearing.

 

[NT]

5 lever to BS something is the recommended type. If you fit anything less youre likely to use it, and more likely to lose your goods. I'm not sure thats worth it. As said, old cover plates can be fitted over a modern 5 lever mortice lock.

I assume you've read the home office advice on door security.


NT

 

[biffvernon]

I have a theory that burglars will be burglars no matter what lock you fit (if any). The variable is how much damage the burglar does as he (and it's not often a she) breaks an entry.

I know someone who is testing the theory by never locking the door, but no burglar has tried the door handle in the last 20 years so he's not quite proved the case yet.

 

[Flyfisher]

I have a theory that burglars will be burglars no matter what lock you fit (if any). The variable is how much damage the burglar does as he (and it's not often a she) breaks an entry.

I agree with the first sentence but surely the real variable is whether your insurance company will pay for any losses if you a) don't lock your doors or b) don't fit the prescribed locks.

I know someone who is testing the theory by never locking the door, but no burglar has tried the door handle in the last 20 years so he's not quite proved the case yet.

My father-in-law never, ever, had any house insurance - buildings or contents - and never once lost out as a result. In fact, he must have saved a small fortune over 50 years or so.

He also never took the keys out of the car, except when driving into a big town, when he would either put them behind the sun visor or, if he was really 'worried' he would actually lock the doors (assuming they hadn't seized up through lack of use) and leave the key on top of the front tyre.

Of course, not everyone is comfortable with taking such risks.

 

[thiambal]

All sound advice. So the question is, is there any way of stopping people from being able to open the door from the outside (as provided for by a yale night latch) without fitting a yale lock or having to use the dead lock each time and incorporating a rim lock.

Or am I asking for the moon on a stick?

Btw, I saw at a house today a door bell which was circular in shape, mounted on the door, it has a small flat plate about and 1"1/2 long on the centre which you gripped and turned thereby ringing the bell on the inside. Does anyone know where you can get a reproduction? It looked nice, produced a nice ring and tested the intelligence of those at the door at the same time. Kind of like natural selection for house callers - cannot ring my bell - cannot come in!

 

[Nemesis]

Try a small bolt on the inside.

 

[thiambal]

Good thinking, a bolt would work. But it would mean if one of us goes out and the other stays in either the door is insecure or you cannot get in from outside.

Oh my good, I think a yale is the only answer, how depressing!

Bwt, on the bell front, I mean like this, only plainer and nicer

http://www.vintagehardware.com/index.php?cmd=product&prodid=28120

lots in USA but all very gaudy

 

[Flyfisher]

Good thinking, a bolt would work. But it would mean if one of us goes out and the other stays in either the door is insecure or you cannot get in from outside.

But if someone is inside the house then they can always let the other one in if necessary.

I'm going to have a similar conundrum when I bring our main entrance door back into service. At present it has no working lock but there is a very substantial wrought iron bar used to secure it. One end of the bar is fixed to the door frame by a large iron hoop, from which it hangs when not being used, and it slots into a large iron hook on the other side of the door frame to secure the door.

Before we can start using it as the main entrance, I need to fit a lock and I also don't like the idea of a yale type lock. I'm planning on fitting a 7-lever mortice lock (or similar) for when we go out and use the iron bar for when we're inside - unless anyone posts a better idea.

 

[skier-hughes]

I have a theory that burglars will be burglars no matter what lock you fit (if any). The variable is how much damage the burglar does as he (and it's not often a she) breaks an entry.

I agree with the first sentence but surely the real variable is whether your insurance company will pay for any losses if you a) don't lock your doors or b) don't fit the prescribed locks.

We could get a discount off our insurance for having an alarm fitted, but we decided not to take them up on it as leaving the house unoccupied without the alarm set would invalidate the insurance. Like me forgetting to set the alarm when I go to feed the chickens for instance!!!!

 

[Penners]

Oh my good, I think a yale is the only answer, how depressing!

I'm sorry but, given that you don't like night latches, I still don't understand your aversion to a mortice lock.

To get in from outside, you have to insert a key, whether you have a night latch or a mortice lock. The only difference is that, once you're in, a night latch locks itself but with a mortice lock you have to turn the key. How difficult is that?

And if you want to abide by the terms of most insurers, the door must be secured with a 5-lever mortice lock anyway. This implies that, if you were robbed while the door was only locked with a night latch, you might have problems making a claim.

 

[Flyfisher]

I think the usual insurance condition is that the final exit door, i.e. the one you use to leave the property, must have a 5-lever mortice lock. Presumably the reasoning is that all other doors can be secured using bolts from the inside and therefore don't require such a robust lock.

Also, I don't believe it's a requirement that the mortice lock is used when you're inside the property, so no need to lock it at night, for example.

My aversion to a yale lock is purely aesthetic and I entirely agree that a yale key or a mortice key is just as easy to use.

However, I would be wary of using a mortice lock to secure the door from the inside because of the risk of mislaying the key and not being able to open the door in an emergency. Clearly a yale lock doesn't suffer from this risk, nor does my plan to use the existing iron bar on our door. If I didn't already have the iron bar I would probably fit a couple of big bolts inside.

I've always been slightly nervous of double-glazed, toughened-glass, locked windows for the same reason - I suspect the key would never been readily to hand in an emergency. Still, no problem with our windows - a good shout would probably get most of them to fall open!

 

[thiambal]

Ah, I don't think I have been entirely clear.

I have no aversion to a motice lock and will fit one to satisfy insurance requirements.

However, if that is the only lock then it will need to be secured at all times, not least to prevent it blowing open in the wind. Ideally, that would mean leaving the key in the lock for easy use, but then if one person goes out and the other is in, either you cannot lock the door or someone has to let you in.

I would fit a rim lock to keep the door closed in addition to a mortice lock, however, unless kept locked people can just walk up and open the door at will. No ideal! If you keep it locked you have the same problem as above.

So my real search is for a way to prevent people being able to open the door when I am at home, and not having to keep a mortice lock forever locked. The key thing, would be a way that does not involved a yale lock. Possibly there is no alternative!!

 

[biffvernon]

No, ideally you have a door that is normally open. The postman can put packets too big to fit through letterbox into the house and neighbours who visit can come in and put the kettle on before going off to find you in the shed or garden. Glad I don't live in Kent. Sounds like a bad land

 

[Penners]

I would be wary of using a mortice lock to secure the door from the inside because of the risk of mislaying the key and not being able to open the door in an emergency.

Our key is easy to find - it's in the lock (while we're in the house)!

But we also have other keys that are normally stored in the house, where we know where to find them.