Local listing and garden structures

[Zebra]

When a house is locally listed, does this include the entire plot and garden structures? My house is not listed, but is locally listed, and is in a conservation area. Having lowered the ground level of the front garden I have a garden wall (not a boundary wall) which now has no foundations. The wall isn't very old or interesting in my opinion, and I do want a wall there, as it hides the shed from view from the road. It would just be easier to start again with a new wall than to underpin and support this one.
In the forum's opinion, would I be in breach of the local listing conditions if I were to knock it down and rebuild it in a similar brick? Or ought I to apply for planning permission to do so?

 

[malcolm]

It looks like local listing doesn't remove any permitted development rights. It only makes the council more annoying if you need to apply for planning permission to do something nice rather than plaster on a flat roof eyesore as you can with permitted development.

On the subject of permitted development rights I was surprised how much is allowed in a conservation area. The stuff normally allowed but not allowed in conservation areas seems limited to anything at the side or anything double height. There are detailed guidelines on http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/100806_PDforhouseholders_TechnicalGuidance.pdf The answer to the wall will be in there and the only think I can think of that would cause problems would be the initial demolition. Rebuilding without demolition seems OK for my boundary wall, a bit at a time. (I was more interested about garages when I read through the document as permitted development might allow me to do something sensible with garaging.)

 

[Penners]

The very modest amount of stuff that I've read on local listing is frustratingly undetailed, so it seems to be almost impossible to be precise about whether the curtilage of a locally listed building is included in the designation. As Malcom suggests, this seems to be down to the local authority to decide, when (and if!) a planning application is submitted.

This page seems to be aimed more at local authorities than at homeowners, but it may be of some help:-

https://www.historicengland.org.uk/listing/what-is-designation/local/local-designations/

This one is not very detailed:-

http://heritagehelp.org.uk/planning/local-listing

Approaching the problem from a different angle, are you absolutely sure that it would be easier to rebuild the entire wall, rather than underpinning the existing? The word "underpinning" has always struck fear into people, but actually it's a pretty basic, straightforward process, and should be considerably cheaper than a full rebuild (I'm assuming that you would DIY, like you have everything else).

 

[Zebra]

Interestingly Penners, I was originally going to underpin it. I've underpinned elsewhere, another garden wall which had the same problem, and as you say, it's not that hard.
However, in this case, it is further complicated by the fact that the wall in question is built in two sections which are neither joined to each other, nor to the adjoining boundary wall. Also, if the thing were to fall over, it's dangerously close to the house.
Here's pics. The raised drain cover in the garden shows where ground level used to be.

 

[Penners]

if the thing were to fall over

If it were to fall over, you would have no choice but to rebuild it as a repair job.... would you?

 

[malcolm]

Surfing the web again and noticed the rules for walls in Conservation areas. If it isn't an external wall then it has to be more than 2m high to be protected so it looks like it wouldn't need planning. Tends to be measured from the highest point or ground level rather than the bit you dug out. See this surprisingly short pdf about what you can and can't demolish:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/415853/150316_Final_Conservation_Areas_Direction.pdf

 

[Zebra]

Thank you Malcolm, for that.
My wall is 1.9m high from the old ground level, so I should be OK!

 

[garnett]

Hi

You need to establish the status of the local list first. Has it been adopted as part of he local or neighbourhood plan process? That is when it gets some limited weight. If not like many it is a wish list of buildings that need to be retained if possible. If it is in a conservation area, this legislation comes into play and it is then a material consideration if adopted in a conservation area appraisal.

Garnett

 

[Zebra]

Decided to underpin, in the end.

 

[Penners]

Well done, Zebra! Bricklaying with hooves can't be easy.

 

[Zebra]

I've now got rid of the old concrete base for the 1960s shed, which was about 400mm too high, as I've now dropped the ground level around the house. I have underpinned one half of the wall. This is what I'm left with so far.*

Do you think it is necessary to underpin the other half? It doesn't seem unstable at all, and any unsightliness will be hidden by the new shed. I was thinking that the brick garden wall could form two walls of the shed itself, but now I think that would make the shed damp inside, and it might be better to build it totally self-contained and independent. Would this cause problems though, with a small gap between the shed and the wall - damp? rats? really small lions? Any ideas about shed design? I was thinking small concrete pads; small brick piers; dpc; timber joists; ply floor and walls of ply clad with either softwood cladding or perhaps waney oak. Waney oak might be a bit twee, but not for a shed, surely? The whole thing is directly facing the front door, so has to be quite attractive.

*Gosh, it doesn't seem so long ago that the inside of the house looked like this.

 

[Greg.Hobson]

Having just (well, over the last 3 years!) re-built my shed in the garden, I would not place anything made from wood close up to any raised feature as the small gap quickly fills up with organic matter blown in to rot quietly. In my case, I only had a small space to work with, so it could not be helped and so it may be with yours, but I would recommend leaving space enough to be cleaned out if at all possible.

My shed was built on concrete pads (actually fence posts laid horizontally) using a combination of donated double-glazed units and windows with about 1000 shingles (made by me and SWMBO) from wood I had secured many years ago as I knew it would be useful someday. (Where have I heard that before?)

I found the hardest bit is getting a good seal where the off-centre Apex roof (built that way to accommodate the donated glass on the North side) meets the walls.

 

[Zebra]

Thanks, Greg. That's good advice, and not something I had considered.

 

[malcolm]

I would be concerned about leaving a gap too, especially if someone ever plants a willow tree nearby. One solution might to be build a free standing shed as a lean-to against the wall leaving perhaps a couple of inches air gap between the shed and the wall. Point the roof leading into the wall to cover the top of the gap and extend the wall covering to cover the gaps beside the shed. There will need to be some ventilation to the gap, maybe gaps between the boards would be enough, or gaps where the boards don't quite meet the wall.

 

[bennoa1]

Good use of the wood wool board. I would underpin the rest now you've dug it out - looking good. Want to remove our concrete floors but we don't have foundations (unless you class a brick on its edge as foundations) so need to be very careful. Plan on using limecrete as a base and either 9 inch quarries (I've accumulated about 300 as well as around 100 which were in the garden anyway (presume removed from somewhere in the house) and need just under 400 to do the hall!!!!) or brick which I think we have in our snug under about 3 inches of concrete.