I was looking forward to having a few days work shortly fitting a couple of conservation roof lights for a customer, it now seems this is not going to happen thanks to the local planning department W.Mids. ish. This is a three storey listed house with quite a large loft bedroom which only has one small gable window making parts of the room very dark, they applied for permission to put two small roof lights at the back to get more light in, the response came back " the conservation officer is concerned that there is insufficient justification for the proposed roof lights" What further justification can you offer for a window other than wanting to allow more light and air into a room? there not saying they can't have them, they just need more justification. Any sensible suggestions would be appreciated and maybe get me a few days wages.
- Thread starter chippy
- Start date
jocelyn plummer
Member
- Messages
- 2,297
- Location
- North Norfolk
I have just heard a very similar tale in a very similar situation in a very similar listed property (Norfolk ish)--- unbelieveable especially as the roof needs doing anyway.
chuckey
Member
- Messages
- 883
- Location
- wenslydale
How about something on the lines of the present situation does not reflect the requirements of the building regs. Or you intend to install some children as lacemakers in the loft and you are worried that the quality of their work might suffer due to lack of light. 
Frank
Frank
Schoolmarm
Member
- Messages
- 1,894
- Location
- edgworth, lancs
Oooh bet you wish you hadn't got on the wrong side of Gareth now. 8)
skier-hughes
Member
- Messages
- 3,414
- Location
- Staffs, UK
I see it as justification for more light, against the damage to the historic fabric of the building. Although less green in energy terms, wouldn't fitting a new light bulb also give more light and cause minimal damage?
Schoolmarm
Member
- Messages
- 1,894
- Location
- edgworth, lancs
chippy said:
Gareth is a conservation officer, as you know, and would be able to advise on the PERFICK wording.
biffvernon
Member
- Messages
- 4,607
- Location
- Lincolnshire
If you are a chippy why not start making bespoke oak windows. Demand is far greater than lill' ole me can supply.chippy said:
Stephen
Member
- Messages
- 199
- Location
- Bishop's Stortford, Herts
I doubt Gareth would ever dream of giving the 'perfect' answer because no such thing exists. No-one here should attempt to give you an answer that you simply use for your client. The justification needs to be property specific and only those that know the property well can do this.
That's the negative part over with. Now for some suggestions.
You are part way there with the need for natural daylight and ventilation into the room. However, you need to consider the issues that might concern them. For example: will the new windows be highly visible or in a slope that cannot be easily seen (or not seen at all) from ground level; what will the windows look like (are they in keeping with the general style of the property); will there be any damage to historic fabric, or is the work to modern fabric (perhaps if the roof has been rebuilt or is for some reason quite modern); if there is damage to historic fabric is the fabric unique in some way (in which case the permission may not be forthcoming) or standard (so that its loss will not be particularly detrimental)?????
Now for a bit of a rant.
I am surprised that your client has got to the stage of getting you involved if permission has not yet been obtained.
However, the need for justification is a long established part of applying for listed building consent. Most home owners and builders helping home owners when they do not do this sort of thing regularly often come unstuck and blame the Council for the red tape when in reality they simply should have made more effort in presenting the application. Under the present planning system ALL applications need supporting documentation. It is no longer sufficient to put in a few basic drawings and expect to get permission. If you look at the guides and information on the Planning Portal website it is all explained.
By the way, these documents do not have to be lengthy. And they do not need to be prepared by a professional (although this can help).
Yes, in some instances it may seem heavy handed (and it annoys me at times), but in general the need for justification and supporting documentation that makes an applicant properly think through the issues is no bad thing - in my opinion.
That's the negative part over with. Now for some suggestions.
You are part way there with the need for natural daylight and ventilation into the room. However, you need to consider the issues that might concern them. For example: will the new windows be highly visible or in a slope that cannot be easily seen (or not seen at all) from ground level; what will the windows look like (are they in keeping with the general style of the property); will there be any damage to historic fabric, or is the work to modern fabric (perhaps if the roof has been rebuilt or is for some reason quite modern); if there is damage to historic fabric is the fabric unique in some way (in which case the permission may not be forthcoming) or standard (so that its loss will not be particularly detrimental)?????
Now for a bit of a rant.
I am surprised that your client has got to the stage of getting you involved if permission has not yet been obtained.
However, the need for justification is a long established part of applying for listed building consent. Most home owners and builders helping home owners when they do not do this sort of thing regularly often come unstuck and blame the Council for the red tape when in reality they simply should have made more effort in presenting the application. Under the present planning system ALL applications need supporting documentation. It is no longer sufficient to put in a few basic drawings and expect to get permission. If you look at the guides and information on the Planning Portal website it is all explained.
By the way, these documents do not have to be lengthy. And they do not need to be prepared by a professional (although this can help).
Yes, in some instances it may seem heavy handed (and it annoys me at times), but in general the need for justification and supporting documentation that makes an applicant properly think through the issues is no bad thing - in my opinion.
I don't think adding a few special words especially written by another council officer would make much difference. This has nothing to do with perfect wording, they have asked for more justification, the room is to dark as it stands, the owners would like to make a perfectly sensible alteration, as far as I know there has been no specific objections raised, but the council have offered no clues as to how they should give additional justification. Biff, if only it was that simple, no space for a workshop and no funds to rent one.
Gareth Hughes
Member
- Messages
- 2,741
- Location
- In the wilds of East Anglia
But the room has presumably always been "too dark", so why should the current owners be a special case over and above everyone who has lived with the situation for a century or more?
Thanks Stephen. I don't know what the application looked like to be honest, I know they spoke to the council before submitting the forms for an in principle decision, the windows are cast iron conservation roof lights about 500mm long which they would like fitting to the rear elevation which is a slate and was replaced in the 1960s, as far as I can see there is nothing special about this property but who knows. I still don't understand how you can give any additional justification though. As for employing me, I have worked for them a number of times I was asked if I could do this job months ago once they had their consent, as I have no regular income at the moment I contacted them looking for work.
Gareth, I thought conservation was about managing change, buildings have been adapted to suit economic and social needs from the day they were built, the best way to conserve something is surely to use it. If you took that attitude you would never have allowed people to put a bathroom in the house.
Gareth Hughes
Member
- Messages
- 2,741
- Location
- In the wilds of East Anglia
I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with either your, your client's, or the council's, stance - but I think the question I asked is, essentially, the question that has to be answered, otherwise the next application will be for plastic windows "because that's what everyone else has, why can't we?", or stone cladding "because that's what we want".
It's a darkish room - so what? there are darker and lighter rooms in my house too. Describing accepting this simple fact as "Local Authority Lunacy" seems to be overstating the case by quite a bit.
It's a darkish room - so what? there are darker and lighter rooms in my house too. Describing accepting this simple fact as "Local Authority Lunacy" seems to be overstating the case by quite a bit.
biffvernon
Member
- Messages
- 4,607
- Location
- Lincolnshire
Hmmm... I'd have thought conservation means conservation as in not change. Sometimes, to suit economic and social needs, things are not conserved.
[url said:
[url said:
Gareth Hughes
Member
- Messages
- 2,741
- Location
- In the wilds of East Anglia
Biff, I think in practical terms I'd qualify that as protection from unneccessary or undesirable change - which is, of course, where subjective judgements come in, which need to be informed by a reasoned justification.
biffvernon
Member
- Messages
- 4,607
- Location
- Lincolnshire
Of course, what one does in practice is less than conservation, but I was challenging Chippy's notion that conservation was about managing change. That's just the stuff that Conservation Officers have to do
thats a really helpfull answer.
As I said, buildings always have and will continue to be adapted to provide a useful purpose. What really gets up peoples noses is the total lack of consistent decision making in these sort of cases, I have been described as ignorant and ill informed, maybe, but I have seen plenty of ill informed and ignorant council officers over the years, a CO is a public servant and only a small part of the conservation process, unfortunately to many of them are autocratic and unhelpful. This post was about the fact that someone has been asked for additional justification for putting in two conservation roof lights. I take on board the useful points made by Stephen but not withstanding those points, the council are saying in principle you can have the windows, but you'll have to come up with something better than just wanting more light before you can have consent.
Cloudscape
Member
- Messages
- 473
- Location
- Mid-Wales
I'd be tempted to try and lay the emphasis on ventilation, not light. I have a large-ish downstairs room with two tiny low non-opening windows. If they did open, it would be onto a neighbour's patio. The room needed ventilation, and now has a (small) rooflight. If I tuck a folding ladder somewhere, the rooflight would also be an escape route. The rooflight doesn't add a lot of illumination, but the small amount that it does add also adds a bit more 'charm' or 'character'. I have a large-ish double height upstairs room with no windows at all. This also has small rooflight now. The shaft of light this gives mean that at least you don't trip over everything in the gloom, and, of course, there's some ventilation. My utility room (high, lean-to) had one low non-opening window and a door. The room's used for two freezers, washing machine, tumble drier, dishwasher (actually never used), sink and the boiler. It needed ventilation (apart from airing the room, there's some very old delicate beams that have had insect attack - ventilation would help keep them dry and safer) and the added light the rooflights give is a bonus.
Your project is a roof bedroom. Is it the kind of situation where it's best not to say it's a bedroom? You know what I mean. Apart from the lack of fire exits, you don't need a lot of light to sleep. :? If the room were, say, an office... you might well need more light, and if the room was to be in use all day, you might need more ventilation.
I'd have been inclined to try for one rooflight, not two. There's also the aesthetic factor that the illumination from a small roof light can actually enhance the character of the room, rather than spoil it.
Your project is a roof bedroom. Is it the kind of situation where it's best not to say it's a bedroom? You know what I mean. Apart from the lack of fire exits, you don't need a lot of light to sleep. :? If the room were, say, an office... you might well need more light, and if the room was to be in use all day, you might need more ventilation.
I'd have been inclined to try for one rooflight, not two. There's also the aesthetic factor that the illumination from a small roof light can actually enhance the character of the room, rather than spoil it.
skier-hughes
Member
- Messages
- 3,414
- Location
- Staffs, UK
chippy said:
Can their be consistency, when each and every house and each and every application is different?