little clues

[charlie-ia]

I think our house is trying to talk to us (or take over our brains) but unfortunately i dont speak its language fully yet!

after our week of exploring i have some little clues, but dont know how to use the information.

the "coal bunker" has a concrete top, which is unfortunately smashed and dangerous. in the concrete it says "Pb 1916". this is pleasant in its self, but the clue is that the concrete looks very similar material to the render on the front of the of the house. it covers the whole front and end wall, and is gently marked out to look like fine stone (ashlar?) on the front.
is 1916 a suitable date for this style?

Even though the front of the house is away from the prevailing wind, it is the joists on this side that seem to be rotted most, so we're guessing the render is stopping it breathing.
If it is from 1916 should we leave it on? is it likely that cement this old will actually breathe ok? should we just remove a few feet at the bottom?


the second clue is the outlines from the past. on the end gable there is the v of a roof , about halfway down the outside of the bedroom wall.
its clearly not an old outbuilding, because of the way the hill slopes.
the two left hand windows have moved up a couple of feet from their origonal position and you can still see a windowsil. on the right a window has been closed off as it would now be between floors (or at floor level- we havent measured yet).
on the opposite end of the building is a very high window, with glass in, but we cant find it from the inside of the house!
It may be in the loft, or behind the wall. or in the secret passage

looking at the gable i would have guessed the house was once a one and a half storey cottage with a thatch roof, possibly replaced with tin, then built into two storeys later. but then the complete window confuses me. its too high for that scenario.

I need to look into this further obviously, but what does it tell me so far?

if it was a cottage should we go for cottage style, or should the fact that its now two story be a stronger influence? there wernt many two storey houses around until recently, except for the bigger square farmhouses, so maybe the people who rebuilt went for a bit grander ideas than the neighbours?

the doors are whats bugging me at the moment, if it was a cottage then plank doors are just the thing. same as on the barn. im thinking if theyve gone to the trouble of adding a second storey then they will have probably gone a little upmarket with their new 1916 door.
on the other hand, it may have been the same farmer living there all along, just needed a bit of extra room. no fuss.

does what ive found so far tell me anything else?

 

[stickybeak]

.

 

[charlie-ia]

sorry everyone, no pics as yet, took a few. more closeups of damage than scenery. not v interesting for you to look at. theres the estate agents photos on a few of my other posts.i ll go and find them

there we go, hows that?
the bricked up window is on the left hand gable, and the complete window is near the ridge of the extention, on the far side of the right hand gable of the main house. the wall you can see is rendered. and so is the left hand wall. ah, now i look at it so is the top of the rh gable, though the extention is painted with lime over sandstone.a "converted outhouse"
we assume there should have been a door in the far wall, but thats gone, and it now goes into the house. this is all guess, it could have allways been like that.
its very damp in there- only one small window, un insulated tin roof, thick concrete floor (fairly old)with vinyl lino, chimney and fireplace concreted over (recently) plastic and boards on the walls, earth banked up all round and a tarmac path. no drains or gutter. 10ft hedge 3ft away.

We really made good progress, nothing that could be classed as anything other than just looking, done no damage, but have got the soil away from the walls, lifted up the tarmac (it was broken anyway-now neatly stacked),found a drain, took out the lino and the wood wormy furniture into the garage (its not ours yet remember- he might want his stuff back!), cleaned the windows and trimmed the hedge.

the floor was actually steaming in the sunshine! how good is that!

 

[Nemesis]

I'd say 1916 was well into the concrete age. But whether or not in the long term cement render should be retained for the health of the buildings is another matter.

Hennebique and others (the Columbian Fireproofing Co is one) were well into building in concrete/cement by then.

Castle House Bridgwater is mid 19th century.

This is one which sadly got away (even though listed...) but at least the CWS warehouse on the Newcastle Quayside was saved and is now a Malmaison.

http://sine.ncl.ac.uk/view_structure_information.asp?struct_id=1302


Pity the Cold Store next to it was demolished. Hmmmm.

 

[charlie-ia]

But whether or not in the long term cement render should be retained for the health of the buildings is another matter.

no its not

If it is from 1916 should we leave it on? is it likely that cement this old will actually breathe ok? should we just remove a few feet at the bottom?

should we tap off all the loose bits (if we can find any) and fill with lime?
the spab site didnt seem to agree, i understood the lime patches could let moisture behind the cement to get trapped. But then it certainly didnt seem to think i should leave it on.
I would hope to be sure before i started anything as major as this, and im wary of damaging the stone.

 

[stickybeak]

Hi charlie-ia
If you do a search on 'removing cement render' fom the front page of the discussion forum, there are many many posts and threads about the subject. Most of them will tell you it's a really bad idea, as contrary to most people's perceptions, stone is not actually all that hard - depends what it is of course, yours might be granite for all I know. Anyway, when you try to crowbar the cement render off where it hasn't 'blown' (come loose out of old age, boredom, frost damage or poor application in the first place) you may simply strip off the layer of external stone. This is what we historic buildings bods call A Very Bad Thing. You could end up compromising the whole structure.
This is the reason (one of a significant handful) that cement is so bad- it's really permanent, and irreversible. I note one of the posts recommended use of some powertool to remove render and cement pointing, but it's really not recommended. The blade bounces off the hard surface of the cement pointing then carves a great gouge into the arris of the brick or stone.
SPAB do a weekend (or is it one day) homeowners course which will take you through the basics. Worth every penny, not only in encouraging you to try things you might otherwise have had to pay someone to do for you, but in discouraging you from doing things which might be Bad For The Building and expensive to remedy.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

SPAB do a weekend (or is it one day) homeowners course which will take you through the basics. Worth every penny, not only in encouraging you to try things you might otherwise have had to pay someone to do for you, but in discouraging you from doing things which might be Bad For The Building and expensive to remedy.

http://www.spab.org.uk/html/education-training/courses-for-homeowners/?PHPSESSID=572ee77aadd7a42f76b71a8d117db51a

 

[Nemesis]

Actually - cement isn't always so permanent, it does at times drorp orf.

It may be better for the building to try to remove it even with a bit of stone damage (and then re-render with lime) than leave it if the building is being suffocated.

 

[Gervase]

Agreed - the problem with cement is that it traps water, and the softer your stone, the more damaging trapped water is likely to be.
Cement is removable, but the watchword is care. Hand tools are preferable, certainly when removing render, although I have used a scraper (like this) with a two-inch flat spade chisel held at a very shallow angle once I knew the render was keyed onto old limewash - but care is imperative.
With cement pointing, again hand tools (a sharp mortar-pick and fine chisels) are preferable but - if you know what you are doing and again exercise care, patience and ear defenders - a 6mm mortar rake with guide (as seen here) can be useful. On no account use a masonry disc.
Everything depends on the sort of stone you have and its general condition. Sometimes some spalling is inevitable if the damp has already started to attack the face, but it is often better - as Nemesis says - to have some surface damage and re-render with a sympathetic material than to leave the masonry to deteriorate.

 

[stickybeak]

Of course, if you can be sure it will only cause a little bit of damage, then get it done (with LBC of course :wink: - if they'll give it to you).. The problem with cement is that you don't know what damage will be done in advance. Some bits will be blown and 'drorp orf' (did we have the same headmistress??) either of their own accord, or with the gentle perusasion of an implement,,,,,,,,

 

[Nemesis]

But - as has been stated repeatedly - the house isn't listed.

 

[stickybeak]

that'll be 'persuasion' of course. Finger trouble, mustn't drink tea, eat biscuits and try to type all at the same time...........

 

[Nemesis]

I like the look of that thingy for removing cementy pointing Gervase - think I might treat myself...

 

[Nemesis]

Anyhow - here's the SPAB take on things:

http://www.spab.org.uk/html/advice/technical-qas/technical-qa-1-dealing-with-inappropriate-cement-renders/

 

[charlie-ia]

i agree going on a course is a good idea.My origional post was on removing cement render, so im sorry to come back to it! the walls are made of red sandstone, so i assume theyre likely to be soft, so i wasnt thinking of powertools. (more like a toffy hammer)

would you agree that if the cement render is loose it should be removed and be patched with lime in the hope that more will become loose later? Im working on the principle that if it sounds hollow its loose enough to be encouraged, is this ok?
I know you agree that if it isnt loose it shouldnt be forced off.
would you agree that its a good idea to remove the bottom 8"or so, gently, even though this may mean some controlled damage, replace with lime and put a small lip all round to allow drips to fall away from the edge of the concrete?

Do the clues ive found so far tell you anything about my house? can you point me in the direction of other clues? its got iron bars on nearly all the windows too, upstairs and down.

do you think plank doors are the right thing for this house then? or something a bit "frillyer"? we were going to paint the windows in the same colour. is that too cottagey for a two storey house?

As a theoretical question, what do you think to re-instating the bricked up window in a silly place? without mesuring its going to start at floor level in the bedroom, or even be slightly between floors. interesting feature, or daft idea?

 

[charlie-ia]

do you know anything about the regional courses they mention on the spab page? Ive been looking but keep drawing a blank(are they calling somerset regional??)
are there courses in lancashire/manchester worth going to that perhaps arnt spab? (or even ireland that anyone has heard of?)

 

[Nemesis]

Yes the Somerset course is a regional one - they move around the country. There is always a London one too. There was Yorkshire last year I recall.

There haven't been as many this year, although there is an advanced course which is new.

I think you won't find a SPAB course in Ireland - you could try the Irish heritage bodies and see if there is anything equivalent.

 

[chuckey]

People do not render the front of their houses for fun, I suspect that the original wall let in water and the cement render cured it (for time only?).

The first thing to door is to go over the whole font with a hammer and whack the wall every foot, with chalk mark any spots that sound loose ( "thunk" not "tong"). This should give you an idea of how much work is required.

If the blocks are soft, they will get marked by your scraper/chisel/tool used to remove the render. There might be spalled blocks or worse under the render.

On my place about 50% of the ribbon pointing had dropped off. 25" came of easily. the remaing 25% was a real pig, if the blocks had been soft it would have been a disaster.

If you remove loose spots and patch with lime, the house will be very "spotty". I have a flyer for "traditional paints (for historical houses)". It lists Beeckosil Silicate Masonary paint, which seems to be the dog's doo dahs, loads of nice colours, down side is > £100 / 12.5 litres. It says is breathes and chemically bonds to any mineral substrate.

Frank

 

[Nemesis]

Although you haven't actually tried the paint yourself of course...

People often render houses instead of re pointing, or because they have altered the place - blocked up windows, or altered windows... and want to hide that.

Until you see how much you can get off, easily, the it's hard to know the next step really.

I think window colours may be way down the line!

 

[charlie-ia]

chuckey by blocks do you mean the stones the wall is made of?
tell me about spalling, i know its where the water has damged the stone. i dont know much else.