Listing question

[Tom]

I have two questions regarding Listing.

(1) If a house is added to the Listing now, would that Listing automatically include outbuildings, fences, gates, hedges, walls etc.? Or can just the house be Listed without the inclusion of anything else?

(2) Also, regarding the cut-off date of 1947, does that just apply to outbuildings or the house itself? So, for example, if a house that becomes Listed now had plastic windows, which were fitted two years ago, would they be exempt from the Listing and therefore be able to be replaced with wooden windows, without LBC?

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Jaqy,

I think the general answers are:

1) Yes - everything within the "cutailage" is listed;

2) No - the building is listed as it is, DG and all. However and CO may well be persuaded to agree to changes if there is a good case that historically it is more accurate/sympathetic to the building's history.

If only we had a CO on here to offer more expert advice... :wink:

 

[Tom]

Thanks, FW. So, what is the point of the 1947 cut-off date? I can't make sense of it :?

 

[FamilyWiggs]

No idea about a "cut off".

However it was the 1947 Town and Country Plan Act that provided the basis for listing buildings in England and Wales. Prior to that there was some act from the late 1800s that provided protection to a limited number of ancient monuments.

 

[Flyfisher]

I agree with FW that everything within the curtilege would also be listed, but I'm less sure about what constitutes the curtilege.

In the 1950s, our house sat in the middle of about 220 acres of land. OK, it wasn't listed then, but would the entire property have been regarded as its curtilege?

When it was listed in the late 80s, it had about 50 acres of land, much of which has since been sold off - do structures within that 50 acres still remain within its curtilege?

Imagine a listed house that once had an outbuilding within its curtilege, but that piece of land and outbuilding was sold to a neighbour. Would that outbuilding still be within the curtiledge of the listed property? In such a case, how would a prospective purchaser of the neighbouring (unlisted) house know that the outbuilding forming part of the property was under the jurisdiction of the listing of another property?

Indeed, as I understand things, even applying for alterations to an unlisted property could be affected by being within the curtilege of a neighbouring listed property.

Wikipedia has this entry about curtilege and listed buildings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtilage):
In the UK, Listed Building legislation uses the concept of curtilage. The consideration afforded to a listed building may extend to other structures or landscape within the curtilage of the primary structure, if the item(s) in the curtilage is old enough, and physically attached to the main building or otherwise important to the setting of the structure. Current legislation uses a cut-off date of 1947, so that later additions, while they may be within the curtilage are not included in the listing designation[2].

The listing of a building or structure does not define its specific curtilage, and so this can become a matter of interpretation and contention. Various factors need to be taken into account, such as the way that the setting works with the primary object, the ownership of the land, the historic use of the land, and physical or visual boundaries, such as fences, walls and hedges.

Curtilage is frequently undefined until someone wishes to make a change to a structure or landscape in the immediate vicinity of a listed building. Some Local Planning Authorities (such as Bournemouth Borough Council) publish provisional curtilages, to assist property owners; but frequently the curtilage is left undefined until such time as it may be challenged in the planning process, or in law.

It's all a bit vague really, although it does explain the 1947 cut-of date.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Imagine a listed house that once had an outbuilding within its curtilege, but that piece of land and outbuilding was sold to a neighbour. Would that outbuilding still be within the curtiledge of the listed property? In such a case, how would a prospective purchaser of the neighbouring (unlisted) house know that the outbuilding forming part of the property was under the jurisdiction of the listing of another property?

Welcome to my world.

Curtilage is a "matter of fact and degree" as lawyers say - ie every case is different. The situation you mention exists for a lot of, for example, converted barns that were curtilage-listed with the farmhouse. It causes nightmare situations, as converting them may have required listed building consent, but once it's been sold off it doesn't show up as a listed building. Technically, they are still listed (although there've been a couple of recent court cases which muddy things even further).

The Planning (Listed Buildings and Conservation Areas) Act 1990 has this to say:

(5)In this Act “listed building” means a building which is for the time being included in a list compiled or approved by the Secretary of State under this section; and for the purposes of this Act—.
(a)any object or structure fixed to the building;.
(b)any object or structure within the curtilage of the building which, although not fixed to the building, forms part of the land and has done so since before lst July 1948,.
shall be treated as part of the building.

Hedges, trees, etc are not covered. PVCu windows are - but that's not to say they must remain for ever. It's a popular misconception (even, it would seem, among contributors here) that listed buildings cannot be changed. Back to the Act:

7 Restriction on works affecting listed buildings.Subject to the following provisions of this Act, no person shall execute or cause to be executed any works for the demolition of a listed building or for its alteration or extension in any manner which would affect its character as a building of special architectural or historic interest, unless the works are authorised.

Simple - you apply for, and get, permission to change the nasty windows. And as an "approved alteration" the work should be zero-rated for VAT.

 

[robgil]

Do you think my galvanised metal windows could be changed for ones similar the ones in the old photos when i get my house listed then Gareth?

 

[Gareth Hughes]

They might be slightly more of an issue than plastic (since so many people are ripping them out and replacing with something else - there soon won't be any left, like avocado bathroom suites, or 1930s tiled fireplaces). But i expect a case could be made.

 

[robgil]

i was afraid you might say that. i do have one upvc window on a gable end that the survey described as inappropriate. Perhaps if i was to try to get permission to have that changed for a wooden one they might let me do them all? you dont see too many of the metal windows now though i have to agree , but surely they would be more fitting on a 50's bungalow than on a 4/5 hundred year old cottage?