Listed farmhouse - curtilage query

[Chamberlains]

I am hoping you may be able to offer some advice about listed building curtilage please.

The background - I own a G2 listed farmhouse. The farmhouse was sold off from the rest of the land in the 1980's and was listed a couple of years later. The boundary is along the east wall of the house. The house is inverted L shaped and longer on the west wall than the east. Between west and east walls is a courtyard garden bounded on two sides by our house, on the south side by an original wall and on the east side by a large barn. The floor of the courtyard, south wall, house walls and low wall at the base of the barn are all of the original brick in which the house is built. The low barn wall is 5 bricks high. Above this low wall is horizontal wood panelling which we keep in good repair. The other three sides of the barn are not in good repair and it has a corrugated metal roof. The farmer has placed fencing around it to prevent the sheep getting in. It is clearly quite a fragile structure.

Assuming that the barn is within curtilage does the land owner have a legal responsibility to maintain it? It is very dilapidated and I worry what would happen if the barn collapsed. There are four barns in the same area to the east of our house and one of the smaller ones collapsed yesterday. The barn forming our east courtyard border is by far the largest - approx 30m long. I've uploaded a plan which shows the layout: yellow is our house, green is our courtyard, blue is the large derelict barn and purple is the collapsed barn. The thick red line is the property boundary.

I've read the Historic England document on listed building curtliage but each of the examples assumes single ownership. In fact, having read CLA and HE guidance today I'm wondering if all 4 of the barns may be considered to be within curtilage?

Any experts who could possibly comment please?

Many thanks in advance.

 

[88v8]

The farmhouse was sold off from the rest of the land in the 1980's and was listed a couple of years later.

Hello and welcome.

Hmm, difficult for you if you do not own the barn. If it had been me, I would have been trying to buy it.

Anyway, this seems to be a knotty area and I am no expert. However, in the Guidance note https://historicengland.org.uk/images-books/publications/listed-buildings-and-curtilage-advice-note-10/heag125-listed-buildings-and-curtilage/ I see in example A 'If the cottage and its garden had been sold separately .... before the house was listed... it would not be treated as part of the listed building'.

On this basis, unless the barn is cited in your listing particulars, it is not within your curtilage as it was sold prior to listing. Same applies to the other barns.

As to liability to maintain, if the barn is itself a listed structure, the Authority has a theoretical ability to require that it be protected. One need only consider the many examples of tumbledown listed buildings to see that this ability is rarely exercised.
Otherwise, no, the farmer can just let it fall down.

Subject to CO approval there is however nothing to prevent you from erecting a facsimile of its gable wall on your land after it has done so. This would preserve the ambience of the setting. Take plenty of pictures and measurements, and if ii does fall down then immediately go in with or without permission - better with of course - and salvage as much of the cladding as would be needed, plus some spare.

As a final thought, you have nothing to lose by a conversation with your CO to see if there is any leverage that can be exerted. Go along armed with contextual pictures.
May the force be with you.

Ivor

 

[Chamberlains]

Hi Ivor, thanks for your reply.

The CO does think the "big barn" is in curtilage. A planning application to change the paddock/barn area into a cottage "craft village" type place was rejected about 10 years ago and one of the (many) reasons for rejection was the "curtilage of listed building" aspect of the largest barn. I guess this could be challenged but no appeal was made and no further planning application ever made. I have just checked the specifics of the listing and it's not mentioned - but the listing is very brief and non-specific. It was one of the "drive by" listings of the mid-eighties I think.

I would like to buy the land but I'm not sure where to start with the process or whether we could afford it! The owner is a very elderly lady who has promised a developer first refusal on the fields but excluded the barn/paddock area plus a small area of field just behind the largest barn (and up to the end of our garden) from this charge. I suspect the developer doesn't want this part of the land as they wouldn't be given permission to develop it. Quite honestly, without the fields it's not worth anything to anyone other than us. Perhaps I will just write to her and ask if she would be amendable to the idea of selling to us.

I did assume that even if there was a process to attempt to force a land owner to maintain a property it wouldn't really be enforceable, but I hoped I might be wrong!

Food for thought - thank you for taking the time to reply, I appreciate it.

 

[Feltwell]

The other angle is does the barn represent a hazard?

If it does, and the farmer is not willing to make it safe, the local authority can get involved.

I did that with a house near us - their garden wall was being pushed horizontally off it's base course by a growing tree trunk, the wall was in danger of collapsing and wanted taking down and rebuilding, the house owner claimed it was still OK and wasn't interested. Problem was , the wall was 6' tall and directly adjacent to a footpath - a footpath which went to a children's nursery. The LA to their credit acted quickly - fencing it off within a few hours of being contacted and serving a notice on the householder within a few days, the wall was then rebuilt within 2 weeks.

Of course "making it safe" for your unlisted barn could involve demolishing it or inappropriate "temporary" supports.....

 

[Chamberlains]

Hi Feltwell, thank you for your reply.

I don’t think it is a hazard at present. It has been fenced off by the farmer so that his sheep cannot get in and the whole paddock/barn area is enclosed by fences and locked gates so isn’t publicly accessible.

Your final sentence rather captures one of my biggest worries which is that if I approach the CO or LA to try and have the barn made safe it might “accidentally” get demolished or suffer a random arson attack. (We had a spate of youths setting fire to things this summer).

Having read yours and Ivor’s replies I’m minded to informally contact the land owner and see if she is interested in selling the land to us. If she isn’t then I will talk to the CO about Ivor’s idea of re-enforcing, or creating, a gable end to the barn within our boundary. This would obviously need planning permission and LBC and agreement from the owner of the barn but is an interesting option which I hadn’t considered. My only concern with this option is that the barn would then cease to be considered as “within curtilage” and become fair game to a new planning application.

The courtyard is my favourite part of the whole house and I would be very upset if it were damaged or destroyed by the collapse of the barn; but equally I don’t really want to become the neighbour to a craft village with lots of cars and people using the driveway which is currently shared only by us, the farm and the neighbour opposite (also G2 listed). Although the lack of access was another reason the previous planning application was refused.

I’m really overthinking this aren’t I?!

I appreciate your thoughts and advice. Many thanks.

 

[MatthewC]

As you say, none of the HE examples cover a situation where a wall of a separate building forms part of the boundary wall of a listed building, which is what I understand the situation is here. I'm sure the barn itself isn't within the curtilage of your house unless, as Ivor asks, are the boundary or the barn cited in your listing particulars? However, the boundary walls are usually part of the curtilage, of course, so do you have any legal document which says who is responsible for each boundary wall?

I'm sure that the owner of the barn is in any case responsible for his own barn, and so if it falls down and leaves an unsighly mess/hole in your boundary, I would assume that legally he will need to fix that part of it. The interesting question will be "In what style and what materials?", hence a chat with a CO might indeed be a good idea, especially if the collapse is imminent!

 

[88v8]

Interesting that the CO thinks the barn is within curtilage.

A bullshit gable-end could be supported on H beams sunk in concrete. From your side, it could look pretty authentic, lacking only the perspective projection of the side walls/roof. One might need access to the other side for periodic maintenance. I presume the cladding is feather edge? If it were spaced by a quarter inch that would reduce the wind loading without affecting the appearance. But this is a matter of detail.

Yes, by far the best outcome is to buy it. Assuming that you wish to sink more funds into a house which is apt to be bordered by a collection of little brick breeding boxes (sorry, I mean new houses).
No, not overthinking. If one is not vigilant as to one's surroundings, one may wake up to find them gone.

Perhaps a further word with the CO, and a chat with the owner. Are you acquainted?

Ivor

 

[Chamberlains]

Thanks MatthewC. It's really good to hear the thoughts of you and the others. I've been reading this board a lot over the past year or so but have neither the experience not expertise to join in a discussion.

Also, as a "newbie" my posts are coming in late to my thread as they are being moderated. I am not ignoring all the good advice.

We managed to catch the farmer when he visited the sheep yesterday evening and we all had a look around the larger barn. The farmer has been the tenant of the land for over 40 years and he says the barn is no more fragile than it was back when he first saw the land. It does indeed seem more stable than I feared. I think my reaction was knee jerk in response to the collapse of the small barn. The farmer said the tile roof of the large barn had partially collapsed many years ago and had been replaced with a light corrugated steel roof which was approved by the CO. The large barn actually has two brick gable walls of about 2 metres which are the same brick as the house and the courtyard walls. They are all extensions of the house and courtyard walls. The long walls have walls of about 30cm and then the whole lot is covered in horizontal wood boards. It seems clear that the house and barn were built at the same time and effectively share a footprint. Forgive my terminology please but I can't think of a better word to describe it.

I do rather wonder that if the house had been listed a couple of years earlier than it was the council may have blocked the sell off of the house from the land.

I will write an informal letter to the land owner - although the farmer thinks that she will not want to be involved and is leaving all the details of the land disposal to be worked out by her executors (she's in her mid-nineties now apparently).

Thanks again. This is a really great resource

 

[Chamberlains]

Morning Ivor, thank for your continued interest. My most recent reply has crossed with yours - although it will be delayed due to moderation.

I've been recommended a local builder with lots of experience on listed buildings so I will ask him about your idea of a fake gable end of H beams in concrete. Yes, the cladding is feather edged. At the moment there are large gaps in it on the long wall sides so the wind has no trouble finding a path through!

I was looking through the original conveyancing paperwork yesterday and the area is also considered to be of "historical significance" and is rated as agricultural grade 1. The land promised to the developer is bounded by four listed buildings (one G1, one G2* and two G2) and the only access/egress point is onto a narrow country lane. It is also in excess of the council's housing development strategy plan for the period to 2036. They have been very good at pushing back on any applications which aren't in this plan. For this reason I would be surprised if the developer picks up the option to buy the land. Even if they do they will have great difficulty getting planning approved. Given that there is a large "garden village" of 17 thousand dwellings being built about 2 miles away on a disused brown field site (former RAF base) the housing developers have their hands full already and many of the completed houses remain unsold. I guess they could just pick up the option and then wait it out for the next housing boom. We are in Berkshire and land and property is very expensive.

I have never met the land owner but chatting to the farmer it seems she inherited the land in the 1960's, sold off the farmhouse in the 1980's and has, with the exception of the rejected application for a small craft village 10 years ago, left the land alone and it's just used for grazing sheep. She does not live locally.

We have in our deeds the right to enter the land for maintenance and repair so we don't need to rely on the 1992 Neighbourhood land Act act to get access. I remember specifically asking our conveyancer to check that when we purchased!

I want to have my thoughts clear and organised before talking to the CO. I don't want to say anything which will make them rethink whether the barn is "within curtilage".

 

[Chamberlains]

Morning Ivor, thank for your continued interest. My most recent reply has crossed with yours - although it will be delayed due to moderation.

I've been recommended a local builder with lots of experience on listed buildings so I will ask him about your idea of a fake gable end of H beams in concrete. Yes, the cladding is feather edged. At the moment there are large gaps in it on the long wall sides so the wind has no trouble finding a path through!

I was looking through the original conveyancing paperwork yesterday and the area is also considered to be of "historical significance" and is rated as agricultural grade 1. The land promised to the developer is bounded by several listed buildings and the only access/egress point is onto a narrow country lane. It is also in excess of the council's housing development strategy plan for the period to 2036. They have been very good at pushing back on any applications which aren't in this plan. For this reason I would be surprised if the developer picks up the option to buy the land. Even if they do they will have great difficulty getting planning approved. Given that there is a large "garden village" of 17 thousand dwellings being built about 2 miles away on a disused brown field site (former RAF base) the housing developers have their hands full already and many of the completed houses remain unsold. I guess they could just pick up the option and then wait it out for the next housing boom. We are in Berkshire and land and property is very expensive.

I have never met the land owner. She does not live locally.

We have in our deeds the right to enter the land for maintenance and repair so we don't need to rely on the 1992 Neighbourhood land Act act to get access. I remember specifically asking our conveyancer to check that when we purchased!

I want to have my thoughts clear and organised before talking to the CO. I don't want to say anything which will make them rethink whether the barn is "within curtilage".