Listed buildings - how do they know?

[alison]

Have been prompted to post here by the discussion of a door on another thread ('Removing a door in a grade II listed cottage').

The question there was 'am I OK taking a door off, even if I'm storing it in case a future owner wants to reinstate?' One answer was 'probably, but careful as you could get into trouble when reselling'.

The question that occurs to me is - how the heck does anyone know what changes have been made without permission? They don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of your house down to what doors (etc.) were where, surely? Even if there's the circumstantial evidence of the fitting holes, how can they prove what happened, when it happened, and what you should put back?

The reason I ask is because having had the GII cottage I'm hoping to buy surveyed, it seems like the previous owners have had a fairly DIY attitude to what repairs have been carried out, and even if permission documents turn up for some things, I don't feel at all confident that I wouldn't be liable for others.

The CO refuses to come out and look at the property until I've bought it (and I see his point), and my solicitor has said 'indemnify yourself', but he would wouldn't he?

As far as I can see, the current owner can't have problems reselling, because the mug who wants to buy the place can't find out what the CO will have problems with, if anything. Is it not the mug who wants to buy the place that gets all the problems, and if they suspect there will be problems, what can they do?

Apart, of course, from shelling out so that the insurance man can have that nice new car he's been fancying for a while now.

 

[Carol]

In our town (conservation area, lots of interesting old houses and industrial buildings) there is a strong local feeling to keep an eye on what owners are doing. Largely this is a good thing and would probably forstall any disasters like the one in Apperley. When we had plasterboard removed from a ceiling in a front room, we had people peering in the window to see what we were doing. On the other hand it does make owners cautious! We have always taken the appeasement route and talked to the CO before work, as it makes for a less stressful life. Why won't your CO visit? It may be worth asking to meet him in his office, he will/should have a file on the house and be able to tell exactly you what he knows has been done with permission. Also the historic fabric of a house does change over time and this has to be acknowledged or we would all have to have oiled cloth in our windows and an open sewer outside the front door. Other more legal eagles on this site may be able to point you in the right direction. Is the insurance very costly?

 

[Penners]

Alison - as part of your purchasing process, your solicitor will send the vendors various questions. One of these will be along the lines of "have you made any alterations to the house during your ownership?"

If they answer "yes" then your solicitor will want to see copies of the relevant consent documents. If they answer "no" and it later transpires that they have carried out alterations without consent, then you will have a legal case against them.

If they answer "yes" but cannot show consent documents, then your solicitor will probably recommend that you should ask the vendors to pay the indemnity premium.

You say that you're worried because the vendors have had a DIY attitude to repairs. That isn't a problem (provided they've carried out the repairs to a good standard). No consents are needed for carrying out genuine like-for-like repairs to a listed building. It's alterations that require consent.

 

[Anne]

There's no real answer to if you can replace the door or not without consent as only your local CO can answer that question legally. It's all subjective every local CO works on a case to case basis. We could probably give you a better idea though if you told us what kind of a door it is and what kind you are replacing it with. Absolutely keep the door somewhere safe if you do replace it.

As to wether or not there are records of your door it depends on what the national archives holds. For example my house has photos taken in the 60's on file. However that doesn't mean your CO will be looking at those photos if any do exist in fact it would be doubtful. If you come to sell however it's more likely that a prospective buyer would look into any archives of the property and be the most likely one to ask questions.

 

[BSA Peter]

The CO refuses to come out and look at the property until I've bought it (and I see his point), and my solicitor has said 'indemnify yourself', but he would wouldn't he?

This is in fact quite cheap, and under the circumstances with a house like you are buying with potential for CO or BR problems good advice.

 

[Nemesis]

I have to say that the worth of insurance against what is a criminal act I have doubts about.

 

[Penners]

Do you mean morally? Surely there's nothing reprehensible in insuring yourself against the criminal acts of others? We all do it when we take out house insurance.

 

[Nemesis]

Well - I think it's all a bit iffy really!

 

[Lime]

Well - I think it's all a bit iffy really!

So do I.
Taking out insurance to cover yourself is not the same as covering the work of other people.
Covering the cost of persons unknown for illegal work of unknown quantity and extent suggests the use of a crystal ball and is unlikely to be covered in my view.
The insurance risk would be specific to each property in order that proper cover could be given and unlikely to be cheap.

It is a bit like a heart patient taking out a life assurance policy just in case they die of a heart attack.
From an insurance point of view it is all a bit too risky.

When you consider that the people most likely to apply for this type of insurance are the most likely to have a claim it goes against everything insurance is based on, that is the likelyhood of making a profit.

I would be interested to know if anyone knows of any such claim being successful.

 

[Nemesis]

Those most likely to apply are also those whose solicitor has identified a problem when doing searches!

 

[Nimster]

When we bought our house, our solicitor asked the "what works have been done" question and, until the vendor produced evidence to show that EVERYTHING had been done with consent (and signed off), they advised us not to proceed with the purchase. There was no suggestion of an indemnity policy. I thought these were usually purchased by the vendor in case of any problems with the (sold) house after the sale? We had to buy a policy to cover a window in our old house when we sold it, as it didn't have a FENSA certificate. The policy was so our buyers had comeback if the window suddenly fell out or something. Like Lime said, it seems overly risky for an insurance company to take on.