Listed Building Consent?

[hatonon]

Our part Victorian, part Elizabethan house was largely derelict and gutted/rebuilt in the 1950s and subsequently listed in its remodelled form, together with 4 other dwellings which form part of an original manor house complex.

There are hardly any original features internally, save some original oak beams.

The dividing (plasterboard) stud wall between our kitchen and dining room has a serving hatch. We would like to create an archway in its place through from kitchen to diner.

My question is whether, in posters' opinions, we need to secure LBC for this change. In my opinion it would be hard to argue that this alteration would '...........affect its character as a building of special architectural or historic interest' - unless you are particularly fond of 1960s serving hatches. But that is my interpretation and I have read elsewhere of farcical situations where e.g. the owner of a Georgian property listed in the 1980's has had to apply for LBC to change 1970s/80s fittings as they were in existence prior to listing.

Our local council's website suggests applying for pre-planning advice in pretty much every instance outside of repairs, which I appreciate I could do, albeit at a cost. I am just wondering whether other listed building owners have taken a more pragmatic approach.

Grateful for comments/thoughts.

 

[MikeG]

I would definitely not go for pre-application advice on this, and would submit a sketch and an annotated photo or two as part of a Listed Building Application. You won't be turned down, and you'll save yourself the pre-app fee (which can be hundreds of pounds). The application process for something like this is very straight-forward. You can write the heritage statement yourself in 2 paragraphs (the first being the Listing, the second the description of the proposed works). You'll need a location plan.

There is unlikely to be a record of the interior of your house, and you are proposing an insignificant change to a modern insertion. I doubt many people would be bothering with any permissions at all in your shoes, but you should.

 

[noj]

I've found that a informal email to my CO with a photo or two attatched asking if, in his opinion, something I'm proposing would require LBC. He's very responsive and quickly lets me know if it 'probably' would not (will never fully commit) or if it absolutely should.

Always worth trying the free route first!

 

[Abi Cott]

I've done some work that I checked with my CO via email and with the support of a couple of photos she deemed it to be repair and maintenance.

I've also done my first listed building consent application. It cost me £22 for a location map and a couple of hours filling out the form. The only real bug bear is that it takes 6 weeks for them to reply.

If time is not of the essence I'd definitely formally apply. It's what you're supposed to do and may help when you come to sell the property. The council might not have a record of what the inside of the house looks like but Rightmove do. A canny buyer might notice the change and wonder what else you've done.

 

[Flyfisher]

A number of issues here:

My question is whether, in posters' opinions, we need to secure LBC for this change.

A fair question, as long as you realise that only your CO can give a definitive answer :wink:

The dividing (plasterboard) stud wall between our kitchen and dining room has a serving hatch. We would like to create an archway in its place through from kitchen to diner.

That seems like a definite alteration to me, regardless of what anyone happens to think about its character or historical interest, and only the CO can provide a definitive decision.

The law requires LBC for any alteration to a listed building alteration and because every listed property is unique it would be practically impossible for the legislation to determine the merits of a case, which is why that particular responsibility is given to the relevant CO.

So the simple answer is 'yes', you need LBC for the proposed alteration.

I am just wondering whether other listed building owners have taken a more pragmatic approach.

I'm absolutely sure they have, because we've discussed many instances on here of people trying to buy a listed property that has been altered without consent and how to unravel the problems that can arise. Conveyancing solicitors, in particular, seem to revel in missing consents (not a criticism - it's part of their job after all) regardless of the merits of the unauthorised works in question and it can all add considerably to the stress of selling/buying a listed property.


So, to the merits of the proposed works. On the face of it, I agree that the proposed alterations would have no '...........affect its character as a building of special architectural or historic interest' and I'd be amazed if any CO refused LBC. On that basis, I would not waste time and money for pre-application advice and would just submit an LBC application as MikeG has described. I've successfully done exactly that for internal alterations, twice in fact, and all it requires is a clear description of the proposed works together with some dimensioned sketches and photographs. It costs nothing (apart from time of course), keeps you legal (and we're talking criminal offence here) and ensures a clear audit trail for future enquiries, making them simple and easy to answer. In that sense, I'd say that this IS the pragmatic approach because anything else involves some sort of risk.

Alternatively, just do it anyway but consider the 'Dirty Harry' proposition about feeling lucky . . . . :wink:

 

[Flyfisher]

I've done some work that I checked with my CO via email and with the support of a couple of photos she deemed it to be repair and maintenance.

I guess that's fine if it's a formal decision but my limited experience is that councils will only give informal advice, complete with disclaimers, unless you go through the formal planning process. Plus, COs can change and a new CO might make a different decision - though a new CO cannot reverse a previous consent.

However, it's a great help to have an accessible CO with whom to discuss such things. I've had a situation where our CO visited, agreed that some work was OK and was happy for it to start immediately, and I submitted the LBC application in parallel. The work was completed before the LBC was granted but everyone was happy.
[/quote]

I've also done my first listed building consent application. It cost me £22 for a location map . . .

Google Maps worked for me

I suspect that the thought of making a formal application is a bit daunting for many people, but it's really not too difficult and there's quite a bit of online help available. It's also a lot easier now that you don't have to submit multiple paper copies, as I had to do for my first LBC application!

 

[Abi Cott]

I sent them their own map of the conservation area in the correct scale with the property marked and they whined it wasn't good enough. And directed me to their preferred map suppliers. In other parts of the country that might not hold true but they basically indicated they wouldn't accept anything less.

With regards to the earlier work it involved stripping plasterboard off a wall and I have her email stating that after discussing it with other members of the team they would be "inclined to view it as repair and maintenance "

Next year I have a complete stud partition wall to remove, that was put in without consent. Her advice on that one is that I will need formal consent. I will get it but to send them lots of photos and supporting evidence to make their lives easier.

 

[Flyfisher]

. . . they whined it wasn't good enough. And directed me to their preferred map suppliers.

Hmm. No, I mustn't think bad thoughts, I'm sure it's all above board. :wink:

Next year I have a complete stud partition wall to remove, that was put in without consent. Her advice on that one is that I will need formal consent. I will get it but to send them lots of photos and supporting evidence to make their lives easier.

Sounds crazy on one level but I guess it's all about documenting any alterations, regardless if the previous work was not.

Our formal listing description contains relatively little internal description and no drawings, photos or floor plans, so many of the alterations I've made could never have been identified based on the listing description alone. But you make a good point about the possibility of estate agent details revealing internal photos, plus of course these days social media can be a somewhat double-edged sword!

 

[Abi Cott]

I can find photos on Rightmove from the last two times this house was advertised. No LBC was requested or granted during that period. I can identify at least 3 alterations that should have required it.

 

[MikeG]

I can find photos on Rightmove from the last two times this house was advertised. No LBC was requested or granted during that period. I can identify at least 3 alterations that should have required it.

I am sure you know that you can be required to put those alterations back to an acceptable condition by Listed Buildings, at your own expense, even though you weren't responsible for doing them. I mention this only to warn those thinking of trying to get away without LBC for works which require it. And of course, to warn those considering purchasing a listed building that they can be held financially responsible for previous occupants unauthorised works.

 

[Abi Cott]

I can find photos on Rightmove from the last two times this house was advertised. No LBC was requested or granted during that period. I can identify at least 3 alterations that should have required it.

I am sure you know that you can be required to put those alterations back to an acceptable condition by Listed Buildings, at your own expense, even though you weren't responsible for doing them. I mention this only to warn those thinking of trying to get away without LBC for works which require it. And of course, to warn those considering purchasing a listed building that they can be held financially responsible for previous occupants unauthorised works.

Yes well aware. I bought my listed building with my eyes wide open and a determination to do it right. One of my local COs has done an inspection to give me some guidance. I mentioned the unauthorised works as at least one of the things I plan to do is reverse one of the changes. She was largely unconcerned but of course that's no guarantee that the next CO will feel the same.

 

[Flyfisher]

Some interesting reading here about the decision-making process for listed building prosecutions:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/.../listedbuildingprosecutions.pdf
In particular section 5.2, which covers the 'human rights' issues around the right to a private family life and a home.

But in case you're thinking of just claiming your 'human right' to alter your listed home as you see fit, here's a list of prosecutions for unauthorised works:
https://ihbc.org.uk/prosecutionsDB/Prosecution%20Table%201%20Size%20of%20Fines.pdf

And here's a more detailed description of example prosecutions, some of which make very depressing reading:
http://ihbconline.co.uk/prosecutions/files/assets/common/downloads/Listed%20Buildings%20Prosecutions%20Database%20Commentary.pdf

 

[Abi Cott]

I live in a "village" with a sizeable conservation area and about 80 listed buildings. The number of people that tell me grade II listing means they can't change the outside but can do what they like to the inside is scary. There is not enough education of listed property owners.

 

[MikeG]

.......The number of people that tell me grade II listing means they can't change the outside but can do what they like to the inside is scary.......

Wow. That's some ignorance. That would effectively mean there would be no difference between being in a modern house in a conservation area, and being in a ll* Tudor manor house. There must be a way of communicating with new purchasers of Listed buildings in a clear and simple way such that this sort of ignorance disappeared.

 

[Pennyviz]

A friend bought a listed property in Bristol centre and wanted to open up the kitchen/dining area, but ran into a load of problems with fire regs etc. Not a CO thing I know but once you start ......

Penny

 

[Abi Cott]

.......The number of people that tell me grade II listing means they can't change the outside but can do what they like to the inside is scary.......

Wow. That's some ignorance. That would effectively mean there would be no difference between being in a modern house in a conservation area, and being in a ll* Tudor manor house. There must be a way of communicating with new purchasers of Listed buildings in a clear and simple way such that this sort of ignorance disappeared.

It's not just new purchasers that are the issue. In fact longer term owners are more of an issue in my experience.

 

[MikeG]

A friend bought a listed property in Bristol centre and wanted to open up the kitchen/dining area, but ran into a load of problems with fire regs etc. Not a CO thing I know but once you start ......

I'd love to know a little more about this, because it is perfectly possible to have an entirely open plan house with no regulations issues. I can't begin to imagine what the problem could have been, and this is my job!

 

[Flyfisher]

A friend bought a listed property in Bristol centre and wanted to open up the kitchen/dining area, but ran into a load of problems with fire regs etc. Not a CO thing I know but once you start ......

Our kitchen extension is adjacent to an original room with some exposed studs and beams and cannot be closed off into separate rooms. Not once during the LBC, PP or BC approval processes was this highlighted as a potential problem. During the final building control inspection for the kitchen extension sign-off the building inspector said the exposed beams would have to be covered over because of fire regulations (the fact that the kitchen was full of equally flammable wooden cupboards and units didn't seem to matter!).

I explained that the house was G2* listed and suggested that he talk to the CO about it. I don't know how the conversation went but a few days later I received the final building control papers all duly signed off.

 

[MikeG]

My previous kitchen (not a listed building) had an oak stud wall with infill panels of oak boards, with leaded lights. There is nothing I have ever seen in the Regs that suggest a kitchen A/ needs walls, let alone B/ needs needs fire-resistant walls. You've just got to be a little careful above a gas hob, that's all.

 

[Kearn]

During the final building control inspection for the kitchen extension sign-off the building inspector said the exposed beams would have to be covered over because of fire regulations (the fact that the kitchen was full of equally flammable wooden cupboards and units didn't seem to matter!).

By the time you have an issue with ancient oak beams burning, I'd dare say you have many more pressing concerns to worry about - probably the lack of anything else remaining except the oak frame!

There do need to be rules, but sometimes it does make you wonder who sat at a desk and made them up.

As an aside, when we removed the HETAS installed and certified wood burner from the infill fireplace hiding our original inglenook, we noticed that the stove pipe had been fitted upside down :roll: