Listed Building Consent to move boiler flue

[vanhelgan]

The boiler in our recently bought Victorian semi needs replacing. It does not provide hot water and we are told it is insufficiently ventilated and potentially dangerous. Unfortunately the current flue location does not meet building regulations necessitating moving the boiler and flue. As the house is listed this will, of course, involve seeking LBC for the works.
The problem that we have is that we are finding it exceedingly hard to get advice about what is and what is not likely to be acceptable, also about exactly what the applications should include. Given that the lease on our rental property expires in six weeks we are becoming increasingly concerned about having to move in with either no heating (the house has been empty for 1.5- 2 years and has really suffered for it - we need some heating to dry it out as well as to make it rather more comfortable for us) or with worries about carbon monoxide.
Last week after giving up trying to discuss the requirements for the application we just did our best with the online information and submitted an application including plenty of annotated photos detailing the current and proposed flue positions and also the type of flue we would like to use. A week later we have received a letter saying that the application is not valid due to the lack of elevational plans.
So my first question is does anyone have any advice as to whether producing these plans is something I could realistically do myself (and recommend any software potentially) as to hire someone else to do them is going to take even longer. Also is there any potential to apply retrospectively? We would be quite happy for the CO to tell us what type of flue would be acceptable and where, and have every desire to keep the character and history of the house which is, after all what attracted us to it in the first place. My biggest fear is that we continue to submit plans etc and keep getting them rejected and the time scale increased.

 

[Nemesis]

Don't even think about applying retrospectively after the work was illegally carried out.

I believe Penners did his own plans using easily available software, although it really wouldn't cost too much to find someone to do this for you, architects may be desperate for work at the moment and it might cost a bit more but I tend to find plans etc get passed more readily if submitted by a professional.

 

[vanhelgan]

Thanks for the advice.
The cost of getting someone else to do the drawings is much less of a concern than the time, although it would be frustrating to have the application refused due to the quality I suppose.
I certainly would not consider just doing the work, but had no idea if it was possible to get an "OK in principle" from the CO before the public consultation phase or similar. As I say I would happily put the flue anywhere they told me to if it meant we could get the thing sorted!
Thanks again.

 

[Nemesis]

It all depends really on the CO - and not all local authorities have one!

But it's certainly worth a phone call on Monday, and explain the situation. The CO might even be able to make a suggestion as to someone suitable to do the plans (if not try SPAB). However, local authorities are never rapid where LBC is concerned... and you will require Building Control OK too.

 

[vanhelgan]

Yes, we have spoken to the CO about the boiler amongst other things but got no further than being told to just fill out the forms. I'll try again with specific regard to the drawings on Monday. If it weren't the beginning of winter I'd be feeling much less stressed about the whole thing!
Thanks again.

 

[middi]

By the time you forms and plans go through the ( unfortunately necessary ) motions for it to be approved it will be spring.

I would have thought that a " considered" CO could have been asked to make a short visit so you could have " picked " his brain regarding an acceptable position for the boiler to be moved to.

If the new boiler is fitted according to current regulation and the CO is happy where is going to be positioned I dont see what all the fuss is about.

 

[chuckey]

Your plans can be done in power point or word draw. There are various things you have provide (from memory) local road layout to 1:1250, or suchlike with your property marked and the North shown. This is so the surveyor can find your property? or more realisticaly so he can see who will be affected. Then there is a plot layout, showing the house, garden, road drawn to a different scale with the bits of work(before and after) shaded in, again so it can be related to the locality. Then there is the actual drawing of the work with relevant materials noted, as your case "flue is a MARTIAN SUPER THICK 24" DIAM, Stove black". All the drawings should be identified and titled and dated. Err thats it. if you e-mail, wall-endATtiscaliDOTcoDOTuk, I'll send you some "drawings" that I did for the local Parks Authority for a barn conversion.
Frank

 

[Pford75]

Don't even think about applying retrospectively after the work was illegally carried out

I understand the point that is being made here (and agree with the sentiment)...but it should be pointed out that it is entirely possible to do some of the work in advance of LBC.

If the current boiler/flue is dangerous, then it is perfectly acceptable to remove this. Similarly, if it is a matter of not having any heating, then I would suggest that the work could be done in advance and consent applied for retrospectively.

I agree with Middi....applying for consent and getting approval can (in some councils) take 12 weeks+ and frankly this is an unacceptable state of affairs if you have not hot water/heating over the wintertime.

Any CO with an ounce of sense should be prepared to give you some unofficial guidance on site to enable you to do the work as sensitively as possible

 

[Nemesis]

I would urge that the CO is involved, and don't carry out new work otherwise, which we have no idea about - does it involve knocking holes, or putting an exterior flue? 'Danger' is one thing, unauthorised new work is another - and remember that there are building control regs to follow also. Ensure that you know what the regs are and follow them, and have approval.

 

[Flyfisher]

And further to Frank's comments about the various property plans required, you could use the plot plans in your deeds and a locality map and/or aerial photo from Google maps. No need to pay an architect and incur more delay.

You may also have to submit a 'design and access statement' as part of the LBC application, even though it is not really relevant. Mine consisted of a single page explaining that it was not relevant. Seemed to do the trick.

As noted above, I also doubt you'll get all the formal paperwork and approvals in place within your 6 week timescale and I also agree that you should talk to your CO as soon as possible, preferably at the property in question.

As for the work itself, you don't need to get building control involved if you use a HETAS-certified installer. They will be able to certify that the work is in accordance with the required regulations. If you DIY then you will need building control to certify.

 

[Nemesis]

Not sure Frank was talking about LBC actually. Seems as though an elevation plan is required, which suggests external work?

Remember that any installer who does work without LBC is also liable if there is any enforcement. Unfair on someone to put them at risk.

 

[Lime]

My first reaction was what type of boiler, who told you it didn't comply with building regs (and why) and what's the problem with the ventilation?

I suspect an older gas appliance being viewed by a CORGI engineer (I use that expression loosely) who really doesn't have any experience with it, doesn't know it's specifications and doesn't want to do the job.
If it is gas then the required position of flue etc will be in the paperwork supplied with the boiler.
This paperwork can often be found on the web.

Not that makes much difference to you but it is very familiar to me.

 

[Nemesis]

There's also the point that no-one is forcing you to move in to a house with an apparently 'illegal' heating system, so although I do have every sympathy, I would urge that things are sorted before any work is carried out!

We spent three months of winter a couple of years' ago without a heating system, and survived. There are alternatives to central heating.

 

[Lime]

I agree with Nemesis.

 

[vanhelgan]

Thanks again for all the advice. I think the other parts of our application have been accepted it just seems to be the lack of an elevation plan that has made them declare it not valid. The instructions online were rather vague and we thought that numerous photos of both the current flue and site and the new flue and site would suffice but apparently not! Yes it will involve work to the exterior of the house. We will be removing a large vertical galvanised flue projecting through the roof (and visible from a public road), reslating over the resulting hole and repairing the interior ceiling and replacing it with a small horizontal flue to the rear of the property, at ground floor level and out of public view. Both sites are not in the oldest part of the house but in a ?1960's extension. Or at least that's what we plan! As I've said before I would really be happy to work within whatever parameters the CO considered most sensitive to the building and if she wanted a completely different position/flue would be happy to do this.
The current boiler is in an enclosed area with no ventilation unless the (groundfloor) window is left open. The vent protrudes through a lower level of the roof and is too close to the bathroom window and an internal corner apparantly. One of the people who has told us this is not an installer but only repairs boilers so would seem to have no vested interest in getting us to replace a repairable boiler.
Whilst if we have to move in without central heating I appreciate there are alternatives it is still very frustrating. Whilst we are not living in the house we've been heating and ventilating the house as much as possible and it's been drying out really well after such a long time empty. There had been a lot of water ingress from things as simple as a blocked gutter which we have now dealt with but to be able to continue to safely and conveniently heat the place after we have moved in would be a real help.
We would not dream of doing the work without an "OK in principle" at the very least from the CO. Before submitting the application we emailed full details and pictures of our proposal to try and get some advice but had no word back so ended up just submitting it given our time constraints. Our chosen installer is able to certify building regs and was the only installer who on hearing that the building was listed did not tell us to just do the work as they would never find out!!!
I'm going to have a bash at creating some elevation plans today and seeing if I can get someone at the council to advise whether they will be acceptable in the morning. As the area involved is on an 'outrigger' part of the building any idea whether I need to do the whole elevation or if a 'sectional elevation' of the extension will suffice?
Thanks again, you're all a massive help!

 

[Nemesis]

V quick as I have to go out...

Sounds to me like the boiler is operational, and although 'potentially' dangerous (no real ventilation, nowadays you need an airbrick etc) may not actully be that much of a danger, ie isn't about to fall on anyone, just doesn't comply with current building regs? Presumably no-one has condemned it. Even then, at times it's a failure on behalf of the person looking at it to have some wider knowledge. My elderly mum had her heating 'condemned' and left being told not to use it - turned out the person involved got it wrong.

Nor does most of my house comply with current building regs, and I suspect our heating system! However, as the boiler and flue may have been installed before current building regs these are not retrospective. Obviously a new boiler and flue would have to comply, but you may be OK to move in and then replace when you have approval etc?

PS CO's are frequently overworked - there may be a huge pile of urgent stuff on her desk to work through!

 

[vanhelgan]

We were told by the guy we called out to repair it that we "shouldn't ask him to touch it or he would be forced to condemn it", and the installer who we are using said he wanted my assurance that we would not move in and use it. Having said that we are coming to the conclusion that we may end up needing to move in with it as is, keep the door to the boiler room closed and locked with the window open and keep the bathroom window upstairs closed. Presumably the boiler was used in this position for many years previously.
We are not able to move our tenancy to a rolling month by month one allowing us to stay put until it is sorted as our landlord is intending moving back in here at the end of our lease (mid Jan).
My main frustration is with the fact that I seem incapable of submitting a 'valid' application, and still have absolutely no idea if it is even likely to be acceptable.

 

[Nemesis]

If it's a sash window, open it slightly and put in a screw to hold it!

You may find that your paperwork has got no further than a clerk in the office, whose job it is to have a tick list - until all boxes are ticked, nothing will be stamped as OK and passed on to the appropriate person.

Even then, remember a CO isn't able always to OK things without wider consultation - amenity socs, EH in the case of I and II* buildings. It all takes time I know. But in the end it's for the good of the building.

PS try a dehumidifier too.

Must go!

 

[Flyfisher]

You may find that your paperwork has got no further than a clerk in the office, whose job it is to have a tick list - until all boxes are ticked, nothing will be stamped as OK and passed on to the appropriate person.

I agree. That's exactly what happened to me with my first LBC application around the time that design and access statements became a requirement so my application was rejected because of the missing D&A statement. My second application was rejected because the application forms had been changed and I had used the old ones. Once past the 'tick list' there were no problems with the contents, which included sketches and photos but no architect drawings.

 

[MdB]

I've done all sorts of drawings in powerpoint before, which works if not ideal.

If you want some idea as to what is required, have a look at some local planning applications which you should be able to get to online. If you need location plans etc then you can again get these online at most council websites.