Listed building change without consent

[AndYon]

Thanks for letting me join!

We are looking at buying a grade two listed house for our next home, and have a couple of initial questions.
We know there has been no listed building consent applied for, and a comparison of the plans submitted a couple of years ago for change of use (C3 to C1) with those in the Estate Agent's particulars show that there has been some alteration (e.g. removal of a wall to create a large room from two smaller rooms, removal of panelling). There have also been changes which we've seen, but aren't documented, such as replacement of interior doors. The house is only part renovated.

Thanks to the helpful advice here, we've got a good idea of what to do if we decide that we want to put in an offer (in order that the current owners pick up the bill for putting the wall back, etc., not us). But what I'd like to get your views on is what we should do if we decide not to buy (once we've seen the estimates for time and cost for completing the work!). Just walking away, potentially meaning that someone who hasn't found this site is stuck with a large bill (and potentially a home they don't want), or at the least has wasted their search fees once they realise the situation. Plus, it is a crime, and ignoring a crime doesn't sit well with me. Historic England has some advice: https://historicengland.org.uk/advice/caring-for-heritage/heritage-crime/how-to-report-heritage-crime/ Would crimestoppers be appropriate?

But assuming we do go ahead, there is a small problem with the change of use consent: the owners noted that the building is in a Conservation Area and 'the vicinity of several listed buildings', but failed to mention that it is, itself a listed building. Seeing as the plans as submitted show absolutely no interior or exterior change, and the change of use is back to its original use, I don't think that would have made any difference to the decision of the council. But might it be revoked? That might have a big impact as I understand that a commercial, rather than a normal mortgage would then be needed. Has anyone heard of anything like that happening?

Many thanks!

 

[malcolm]

With change of use comes a requirement to update the house to latest building regs - fire, insulation, water efficiency etc. If the house is listed some compromise might be possible.

Mortages might be tricky - I couldn't get one in 2012 for a change of use. There may be development mortages available but these can be expensive. I would check that before putting money into checking anything else.

 

[MatthewC]

If inclined, one could actually fill one's time in retirement by pursuing the things that evade the local council here - such as works on listed buildings (not forgetting that the curtilage is listed as well), works to buildings in conservation areas, unauthorised dropped kerbs, and driveways which don't have the required drainage but go straight to the gutter outside. Most of this is ignorance by owners but when I think of the hassle I had in trying to follow the rules... One hassle was a condition on LBC which said I had to do something "before the house is first occupied" which, given its age, was ridiculous! I ignored that one!

In this case, if deciding to not buy the place, I might be tempted to write to the estate agents (and the solicitors if you know their name) telling them precisely why you aren't buying it. Then (AIUI) they are under a professsional obligation to make sure their particulars are correct and that future potential purchasers know the issues. If you want, you could also send a copy to the local council who might either ignore it or keep an eye on it.

Can't help with change of use, though.

Matthew

 

[Bogart]

Crime stoppers seems a bit of a pointless effort in my opinion. I am not sure estate agents or solicitors, the vendors I am talking about here, are bound to disclose breaches of listed status even if they become aware as both are not acting for the buyer. It is the old story of "caveat emptor". I would have thought anyone buying a listed property would have the sense to look at the listing and make enquiries from the vendors. Also the buyers solicitor should ask the question " has there been any breach of the listing requirements" . It is either yes or no the old waffle of "not as far as we are aware" is tantamount to a yes in my book.

 

[MikeG]

With change of use comes a requirement to update the house to latest building regs - fire, insulation, water efficiency etc. If the house is listed some compromise might be possible..........

Hmmm. Not sure. That's a new one on me.

-

As to the question, I would go straight to the Listed buildings people at the local council and tell them. I've done it a number of times, and I'll do it any time I see a Listed Building being messed with without permission. Sorry if that upsets sensibilities.

 

[malcolm]

Hmmm. Not sure. That's a new one on me.

It's true! Quite inconvenient too because you can't reasonably insulate a damp wall so there can be a whole building restoration to do before you can clag a bit of insulation on. Have a search for the words 'change of use' in the building regs docs and weep like me and my willow do.

 

[MikeG]

Well, I've got the Regs (and the Guidance, more importantly) in a non-searchable format. Give me a clue where to start looking and I'll have a look. Either that, or I can just ring my friendly local building inspector in the morning....... :wink:

 

[malcolm]

Start with Doc L (L1b) page 13 on the 2014 version I am working to: Material Change of Use and Change of Energy Status. (insulate to death, walls and roof, and maybe floor if you are unlucky. Replace all your single glazed windows with nice double glazed units or fit secondary glazing). Similar stuff exists in Doc B fire safety (replace all your windows that have an opening at the wrong height or the wrong size, replace half your doors with fire doors if you have an attic room). Doc G (water efficiency) is worth a look (replace your toilets, baths, showers, taps for weedy ones to satisfy water efficiency, or alternatively keep your three urinals and fit low water usage flushes to them just for inspection and hope the building regs guy doesn't notice the drain is blocked). Doc G or H (not sure which - replace all your drain covers inside with sealed ones. Not a bad idea really). Nothing on structure thankfully as mine is iffy in places. Material Change of Use are the words to look for.

I am going through the process at the moment. Ex-pub, not listed, in conservation area in case you need any more help with it.

Listing can help - having a conservation officer onboard can help. I'm keeping my 100 year old leaded bay windows at the front and just secondary glazing them. UPVC wouldn't be quite the same. I don't need to insulate the two layers of timber frame on the front as moisture doesn't need any more barriers. Elsewhere the place will not be historically accurate. You need an independent inspector for this - council inspector would add too much chance.

I mention it every time as I didn't realise the requirement until after I bought my house. I try to alert others as it is not widely broadcast but can be a hassle. Perhaps if you can check out the requirement you might be able to help others plan for it and buy for a suitably cheap price. Developers don't like this sort of thing and mortgages are tricky so don't buy for the price of a similar size house. Land value is closer to the mark for purchase price.

 

[MikeG]

OK, well I think you've either been unlucky, or you were needing to do other works to the building which made it controllable. My friendly LA building inspector has confirmed that they wouldn't treat a change of use from C1 to C3 as controllable simply on the change of use. Obviously if you were doing other works which brought under the aegis of Building Control then that would be a different matter. A direct change of use, without works, would leave them uninterested. This isn't an opinion off the top of his head, it's been confirmed with the head of Building Control at the authority concerned.

 

[MikeG]

..... nice double glazed units.........UPVC wouldn't be quite the same. ..........

You know there are some really nice modern double and triple glazed timber windows perfectly suitable for older properties? uPVC (spit) isn't the only type of double glazing or replacement window.

 

[malcolm]

Really? That is nuts if you can change from a Hotel (C1) to residential (C3), but if you start with an Inn (well, a pub A4) you have all the hoops to deal with. (But good news for period properties looking for a new use so long as they aren't a pub.) Is it moving from different letters A, B, D whatever to C that brings on the regs or does it vary by area?

uPVC and cement free site here! Windows are very custom and all a bit sneaky in one way or another.