Lime pointing

[Bluesky32]

Hi there
I have a question about Lime pointing, we are renovating an old red brick former blacksmiths cottage from around 1780 and we are removing all the cement pointing that has been used over the years and want to repoint using lime as it was originally we have found the right mix of lime and sand etc that we need but my question is should the lime be flush with the bricks or inset slightly?

 

[Lime]

From what I've seen of older pointing in lime most has been flush with the surface.
There are more fancy methods of finishing off, for instance cut and struck, but flush pointing makes for a better appearance after time IMO.
(I recall being told 50 odd years ago that the broken handle of an old metal bucket could be used to shape pointing too.)

 

[MdB]

What finish do you like? That is as important as any other criteria.

At the lime course I went on, they said to finish with what I think was called a weather strike. This meant running the trowel along the bottom brick with the edge slightly under the top brick. The idea was to give a surface that would help keep the rain from going into the joints.

Found a pic:

(Look at left hand edge)

Interestingly, my mates house in Southampton has lime pointing which has an upside down weather strike, i.e. the rain can pool on the bottom brick a little bit. It doesn't seem to cause problems.

 

[MatthewC]

Interestingly, my mates house in Southampton has lime pointing which has an upside down weather strike, i.e. the rain can pool on the bottom brick a little bit. It doesn't seem to cause problems.

I once owned a 1930's house near Huntingdon, built with lime mortar, which also had that "feature". At the time I didn't understand much about lime and breathability , but even then it certainly looked odd to me. The bricks were wire cut so running a trowel along the edge of the brick gave a wavy finish to pointing!

 

[Feltwell]

(I recall being told 50 odd years ago that the broken handle of an old metal bucket could be used to shape pointing too.)

Yep - it's pretty much the standard pointing for modern houses and even adopted the name "bucket handle", as per MdB's picture. You can get a posh Marshalltown brick jointer to make the shape but most brickies seem to use a bit of alkathene* as there's always some laying around on site.

I think it's a particularly unattractive pointing finish. Using reclaimed, rather uneven brick I find that flush pointing brushed over with a soft hand brush looks good.

I can't even begin to imagine the sheer unalduterated tedium of doing tuck pointing!

* that blue water pipe you see used nowadays to connect your house to the water company mains.

 

[biffvernon]

If the bricks are old, as they are on a 1780 building, there's a good chance that the edges will be weathered. If you use flush pointing you end up with a wider mortar line than when the bricks were new. An old building repointed with flush pointing can look very, er, well, looking as though it has been newly repointed.

I prefer recessed.

 

[Feltwell]

Good point Biff.

 

[tobydog]

In the nearby town of Manningtree where I commute from there is an awful S-bend that cars have a habit of underestimating. Recently one ploughed into a lovely Georgian house opposite and took a good part of the front wall down. When they had finished rebuilding the wall it looked as though someone had drawn between the bricks with a white grouting pen. I've not looked at it close up but it looks terrible from a distance because the rest of the wall is original and weathered. Is this possibly the builders attempt at 'tuck' pointing? If so, I can't see anything in it's favour, even if you were to do the whole house.

 

[CatherineB]

There is a redbrick Victorian house around the corner from us, Toby, which was repointed a few years ago and it looked dreadful - bright white pointing between the red bricks. It has now mellowed, and looks just like its neighbours - very nice.

If weatherstruck pointing is meant to be best for keeping the rain off, why does everyone not just use that?

 

[Lime]

Virtually all original "old" buildings had bright white pointing when built.
I see nothing wrong with new pointing looking new.
It soon fades.

 

[Lime]

If weatherstruck pointing is meant to be best for keeping the rain off, why does everyone not just use that?

Because there is no evidence that it does keep the rain out.

It could be argued that the angled struck face presents a larger absorbant surface area to the rain!

 

[tobydog]

Maybe I'm being a little unfair. The wall was only rebuilt this year so it will take time to mellow. Now I know what it is I will be more foregiving. I understand that renovations can result in this patchwork effect. Our neighbour has just had his Victorian house completely renovated and it included a significant amout of re-pointing with lime.

We learn something new everyday which is why I'm getting addicted to PPUK!!

 

[biffvernon]

Virtually all original "old" buildings had bright white pointing when built.
I see nothing wrong with new pointing looking new.
It soon fades.

But, as I suggested, when flush pointing is applied to old bricks with weathered edges the effect is not the same as the original. Something a bit less than flush, carefully brushing off the excess from the edges, gives a nicer result to my mind.

 

[tobydog]

In our own circumstance I agree. When we built our new extension we recycled the bricks from the Victorian extension we demolished in order to build the low plinth wall. They were pretty rough round the edges and the flush finish the builders used sat well with the overall look we were after. This was probably more through luck than judgement as I'm not sure the builders even thought of anything else. They were just building a wall!!

 

[stuart45]

If weatherstruck pointing is meant to be best for keeping the rain off, why does everyone not just use that?

It also takes longer to do than using the bucket handle, which also compresses the joints to give a weatherproof joint. With cement mortars a metal tool brings cement fat to the surface giving extra weatherproofing. After a while this weathers down exposing some of the aggregate changing the colour slightly.

 

[MatthewC]

I saw a repeat of Grand Designs over the weekend where pointing featured highly; it was a quite recent programme where a couple made a home from a dilapidated industrial building in Somerset.

They went for flush pointing. Although they used Mike Wye samples of mortar to get a colour match, I don't think they'd done the "introduction to lime" course there as they would have known about those nice little pointing spatulas. Instead they seemed to use a gauging trowel to smear the mortar all over the face of the stone; a later shot clearly showed a craftsman using a wire brush to remove the hardened excess!

Because they wanted a uniform finish, they re-pointed the entire building, although they admitted that it would be difficult to get a good uniform match in all places as there were different types of stone used. The area to be done was vast, and in many places it just didn't need it. I'm sure the conservation guidance here is to NOT re-point huge areas unless absolutely necessary.

I don't know why I watch these programmes!

Matthew
http://houseintheenchantedforest.blogspot.com/

 

[Zebra]

No expert, but just done a lot of external pointing on my house of a similar age. Bricks are rounded on the edges, and so filled the joints almost flush, slightly recessed, then when bashed with a churn brush it knocks it back a little more so the finished joint is recessed, and also reveals the aggregate. Looks marvellous, if I do say so myself!!!
I can see the point if you were using cement, but what would be the point of using a weatherstruck finish with lime mortar, which is meant to absorb water anyway!