light switches.

[robgil]

can someone please tell me why i cannot use this , or why i should not use this

http://www.antiquedoorfittings.co.uk/ourshop/prod_112000-VictorianEdwardian-Brass-amp-Ceramic-quotJelly-Mouldquot-Light-Switch.html

and instead use this?

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CS1920R30.html

the problem i have with the latter is the brass used nowadays is more like coated tin foil as opposed to the heavy brass used years ago. i really cannot do the modern , coated , gold type brass used in modern fittings , i want something that will tarnish that i can use polish on and not something coated in a gold coloured lacquer..

what's your views guys? are the original switches safe to use?

 

[JoceAndChris]

Switches have been argued about on here lots. http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10430&hilit=switches&start=15 is just one thread.

It's a really interesting one. I like your antique switch, I can't comment on its safety. I agree with you about the naffness of the modern dolly switches, but, at £30-£40 each to replace every one in the house with something lovely becomes a very serious purchase indeed. We've got around 60 switches and sockets here. At £35.00 each, that's £2100. That would get me some windows.

 

[Pford75]

I can't be certain on the switches you have linked to, but one of the major problem with traditional style switches is that the cover can be unscrewed. AIUI, if the cover can be removed with the need for tools, then it doesn't meet the current regulations. It may be possible that the modern version is secured with a screw or similar.

Whilst I am normally a supporter of the regulations and the need to use experts when dealing with electricity, this does seem a little over the top. If you were to fit the switch yourself, there is no problem and at worst you could be forced to replace it should you want to sell your property and need Part P sign-off. If this is part of a larger rewiring project, then it may prove more problematic.

 

[Flyfisher]

It might also be something to do with the actual switch mechanism itself. Old switches were often just two contacts and a lever that would move them apart. Arcing could easily occur if the switch was operated slowly, which is a fire risk. If you were particularly malicious, or just unlucky, you could slowly open the switch and leave it in an arcing position. Not good. Modern switches have a 'flip' mechanism, usually spring-operated, so that the contacts are quickly closed or fully opened regardless of how the switch lever is operated. This almost eliminates arcing so is safer. There might also be an issue with the insulation and construction. And current regulations require a 3mm gap for safe mains isolation (I may be out of date with this figure, but the principle should be clear) and old switches may not meet this.

All in all, it's a standards and regulations thing and retro-fitting non-compliant switches will make your wiring non-compliant as well.

 

[skier-hughes]

I've used Broughton's of Leicester for my switches
http://www.broughtons.com/products.php?cat_id=657
using the hand aged facility they have.
I bought mine without a backing, so Jo's Dad can make us some out matching oak.

 

[Ushy M]

I've used Broughton's of Leicester for my switches
http://www.broughtons.com/products.php?cat_id=657
using the hand aged facility they have.

Oooh, those are gorgeous! I really like the Star ones (yes, yes, I know..old hippy). We bought our window furniture from there - lovely quality. I've barred myself from their site at the moment - much too easy to click a few buttons and spend online isn't it?

 

[Moo]

They're not cheap, either, are they? (£39 for the plainest one...)
But why not do what our ancestors did and just splash out on a few, for important rooms, and put something cheaper (bakelite?) upstairs and 'below stairs'?

 

[Lime]

can someone please tell me why i cannot use this , or why i should not use this

http://www.antiquedoorfittings.co.uk/ourshop/prod_112000-VictorianEdwardian-Brass-amp-Ceramic-quotJelly-Mouldquot-Light-Switch.html

and instead use this?

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CS1920R30.html

the problem i have with the latter is the brass used nowadays is more like coated tin foil as opposed to the heavy brass used years ago. i really cannot do the modern , coated , gold type brass used in modern fittings , i want something that will tarnish that i can use polish on and not something coated in a gold coloured lacquer..

what's your views guys? are the original switches safe to use?

No, they are not safe.
The old switches do not comply with the IET regulations and haven't done so for decades.
They are poorly insulated so both the dolly switch and the surround can become energised sometimes at different voltages so it is possible to receive a severe shock touching the switch alone.
When there is a group of them the dangers increase.
A possible method to put them into service could be to use a low voltage on the switch that operated a circuit breaker (relay) to switch the mains.

 

[Feltwell]

Robgil,

I work for an importer and manufacturer of electrical fittings, including switches. Lime and Flyfisher are spot on - switches that old are not safe and can be a fire hazard. If you really want to use them then a seperate low voltage circuit is the way to go.

Nice reproduction switches are very expensive - can't help you there, our stuff is the mass-market laquered variety that you hate!

 

[MdB]

Be warned when using old light fittings for low voltage lighting that the currents are increased by the same amount as the voltage dropped. This can cause you to put too high a current through an old switch. I wouldn't want to put more than an amp or two through an old switch which would limit you to 12W or 24W when running at 12V. Not very much.

A dodgy high resistive switch is just as likely to catch on fire at low voltage as it is at high voltage when it has the same current passing through it.

Stick with modern reproductions of old switches that meet the relevant modern safety standards.

 

[essexbearhunter]

Be warned when using old light fittings for low voltage lighting that the currents are increased by the same amount as the voltage dropped. This can cause you to put too high a current through an old switch.

It might be that Feltwell was thinking of of it more as a control circuit- such as you get in a car ignition switch - where a small current and voltage is used to switch a relay. The slave side of the relay then takes the full current. I don't know if an equivalent exists for mains voltage.

One slight thought: since a Victorian light switch (brass or otherwise) for the ordinary domestic home is as fictitious as a Jacobean TV cabinet (electricity in the home only really started in around 1911, if you were lucky http://www.theiet.org/about/libarc/archives/exhibition/domestic/lighting.cfm ) you could bypass the problem and use bell pulls. Substituting a more stylish rope pull for the majority of the nylon cord on a conventional bathroom-type pull switch might be an interesting alternative

 

[Moo]

Bell-pulls. Now that's an interesting idea.
Once Nigel has made himself a suitable dressing-gown, he could while away those winter evenings stitching some interesting petit-point.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Presumably one pulls the bell cord, and one's manservant comes scurrying up from below stairs and switches the light on?

A perfectly elegant solution.

 

[robgil]

thanks guys for all your input. so ,a man servant would be great , but not really practical as we would have no idea where to store one , unless , do they sleep at all? would i be able to store one in a wardrobe?

the old original switches is hard to let go of based on the alternatives however this is only because of the brass covering , so what i might do is buy a cheap re-pro and an original and see if the cover and toggles can be swapped over? really its only the base that's dangerous isnt it?
i can buy genuine ones for next to nothing so if this was to work (i have yet to see the workings of either) a modified genuine switch might still work out cheaper than an expensive re-pro.

saying that mrsrongil now wants bakelite. are modern bakelite switches an honest reproduction of the originals?

 

[Feltwell]

It might be that Feltwell was thinking of of it more as a control circuit- such as you get in a car ignition switch - where a small current and voltage is used to switch a relay. The slave side of the relay then takes the full current. I don't know if an equivalent exists for mains voltage.

Yep, that was what I meant - as Lime said above - I just didn't express it very well !

It's well & truly outside of my field, but I believe that such setups are done on some industrial equipment.

Daft idea time:-

If you wanted to switch directly, how about using your old switch to power 12volt caravan fittings put into table lamps? The table lamps could plugged into a seperate circuit using 5amp round pin sockets (electrical wholesalers carry these). Caravan switches are very crude indeed (having fixed some in the mother-in-law's recently!), I can't believe your old switch is any worse. Clearly you're only going to get low wattage bulbs.

You could then fit a modern 240volt lighting circuit as normal, but fit it with a remote control switch - and put the wall part in a concealed position.

So, you walk into the dark room and switch on your table lamps from the wall - then switch on the main lights from a remote control. Just make sure you don't need a line of sight from the remote to the wall unit, I don't know if they work by radio frequency or infra-red !

It does sound like a lot of aggravation though. I think I'd rather save up and put decent repro switches in the main rooms. Future buyers may well be put off by any setup that is idiosyncratic as well.

 

[Feltwell]

saying that mrsrongil now wants bakelite. are modern bakelite switches an honest reproduction of the originals?

There's an old thread on this - Andrew Bodenham did this and the results looked good to me, especially once the backplate ages a bit:-

http://periodproperty.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10020&p=115631&hilit=bakelite#p115631

 

[robgil]

thank you Feltwell , they do look good. as much as i would like some nice old brass switches with a nice patina i could quite easily settle for switches like that.
i think

interesting without being grand

would be better for my old house than something too grand that may seem out of place.