Lifting up and putting down.

[jess marley]

Does anyone know in what situation English Heritage would okay the reconstruction of a whole house on an alternative site?
Any examples?

Isn't it a lovely evening?

 

[Nemesis]

Only in the direst of situations really. Not simply cos you want it moved. It would have to be under major threat of demolition for something of greater 'community good'. Or under some other real threat. Such as falling into the sea.

And it's probably not EH's decision.

 

[arl]

Did you happen to see last weeks antiques road show, which featured footage of Miss May Savidge who in 1970 moved her timber framed house from Ware to Wells-next-the-sea when it was threatened with demolition, It was moved piece by piece and rebuilt, by herself with some help from the local scouts. Absolutely inspiring to see this little old lady climbing scaffolding and rebuilding her own house. Unfortunately she died before she completed it but left it to her children on the condition that they finished it.
I believe it is now a B&B

http://www.glavenvalley.co.uk/warehall/

 

[plumbers mate]

But did it maintain it's structural and historical integrity by being moved? Was the area around it properly excavted by competant archaeologists first?

 

[Nemesis]

I don't think so - I think it was just sorta dismantled...

 

[Flyfisher]

But surely it was a better option than demolition?

As far as 'historical integrity' is concerned, the move from Ware to Wells is now an integral part of its history - and a quite remarkable and rare event too.

 

[Nemesis]

Yes but demolition of a listed building isn't something which in the main is given permission except in cases of greater community need/good.

I don't think that place was listed actually.

 

[Flyfisher]

I assumed it wasn't listed, hence the demolition threat. So, really, Miss Savidge is to be congratulated for saving the building and creating/preserving an interesting piece of heritage in its own right.

 

[Nemesis]

We many of us do that without listing. Listing doesn't always prevent demolition either.

I think the threat was long ago before the most recent legislation and was for a road or roundabout. It was good that she, the local scouts etc dismantled a building which was threatened rather than go for landfill of course.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

We many of us do that without listing. Listing doesn't always prevent demolition either.

I think the threat was long ago before the most recent legislation and was for a road or roundabout. It was good that she, the local scouts etc dismantled a building which was threatened rather than go for landfill of course.

I think the Ware house was demolished in the sixties, probably before the current controls came in, (ie, even if it was listed, there wasn't much you could do to prevent demolition)

Unlike some relocated buildings (and despite recent court cases) the Ware house isn't listed on its present site.

 

[Flyfisher]

We many of us do that without listing.

Of course; I only mentioned that perhaps Miss Savidge should be congratulated because the earlier posts seemed a bit critical of her moving, and thus preserving, the house.

 

[stickybeak]

.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

I think you'll find one or more listed buildings in the Shambles Market area of Manchester in recent times (2002? 2004?) were dismantled, moved and then reconstructed elsewhere to prevent their total demolition for a new town centre skyscraper. (scratches head...) come back to you on that one.

Yes, in the course of the post-1996 bomb rebuilding. They's been cut off their foundations and lifted up by a couple of metres in the 1970s (and at the same time subjected to a very thorough "restoration" by Freddy Chrles which left not much original material). They were relocated to make way for a street approaching the cathedral.

It was still a controversial move because as rebuilt there's very little of the old buildings left and they've been re-erected in a different relationship to each other which falsifies their history completely.

Spon Street in Coventry is a "zoo" of mediaeval buildings moved from elsewhere in the city during port-war redevelopment.

http://www.thecoventrypages.net/hstoric-cov/spon-street.asp

 

[Nemesis]

Ye there was - in fact I think the building was moved once before - but there's a great deal of odd stuff gone on in Manchester (the Free Trade Hall, the Wholesale Fish Market) which anyone with an ounce of feeling for historic buldings wouldn't contemplate.

It's a bit of a grey area which I think SPAB raised recently about whether or not building dsmantled and moved should still be considered listed..

Thanks Gareth - two buildings not one. Timber I recall...

 

[Nemesis]

We many of us do that without listing.

Of course; I only mentioned that perhaps Miss Savidge should be congratulated because the earlier posts seemed a bit critical of her moving, and thus preserving, the house.

Well it was salvaged, not sure if that's preserved. But there you go.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Ye there was - in fact I think the building was moved once before - but there's a great deal of odd stuff gone on in Manchester (the Free Trade Hall, the Wholesale Fish Market) which anyone with an ounce of feeling for historic buldings wouldn't contemplate.

It's a bit of a grey area which I think SPAB raised recently about whether or not building dsmantled and moved should still be considered listed..

Thanks Gareth - two buildings not one. Timber I recall...

One timber, one brick. The extent to which the latter now contains any historic material at all is uncertain...

The most recent court / planning inspectorate cases suggest that:

1. Where a building has been deliberately taken down (in the particular case under question, with the intention of being re-erected elsewhere), the components remain protected and the re-erected building is deemed to be listed.

2. Where a building is accidentally destroyed (in the particular case, a timber-framed barn which was blown bodily off its foundations and smashed), the protection does not extend to the rebuilt version.

I can think of exceptions to both of those interpretations, and circumstances where the legal position would be a nonsense. But it's a bank holiday weekend and I want to go and make the acquaintance of the bottom of a decent bottle of something so I'll see you on Tuesday all being well.

 

[Penners]

Several decades ago, Ballingdon Hall on Ballingdon Hill in Sudbury, Suffolk, was moved on wheels up the hill - lock, stock and wotsits - because an industrial estate was being built close to it.

.

No idea whether such a thing would be approved nowadays

 

[Nemesis]

1. Where a building has been deliberately taken down (in the particular case under question, with the intention of being re-erected elsewhere), the components remain protected and the re-erected building is deemed to be listed.

2. Where a building is accidentally destroyed (in the particular case, a timber-framed barn which was blown bodily off its foundations and smashed), the protection does not extend to the rebuilt version.

I can think of exceptions to both of those interpretations, and circumstances where the legal position would be a nonsense.


I think the answer is - permission permission permission. Ask and get it and you might be OK... but it's only in very exceptional circumstances it should happen.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

1. Where a building has been deliberately taken down (in the particular case under question, with the intention of being re-erected elsewhere), the components remain protected and the re-erected building is deemed to be listed.

2. Where a building is accidentally destroyed (in the particular case, a timber-framed barn which was blown bodily off its foundations and smashed), the protection does not extend to the rebuilt version.

I can think of exceptions to both of those interpretations, and circumstances where the legal position would be a nonsense.


I think the answer is - permission permission permission. Ask and get it and you might be OK... but it's only in very exceptional circumstances it should happen.

I can't find my corkscrew...

In both the above examples the buildings had come down without permission (the first is the celebrated Antique Buildings Ltd case). It is a bit of a minefield legally, regardless of the permission issue.

 

[Nemesis]

Agreed - it's a case by case basis as with all else I feel.