Nemesis
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Scotsman today:
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/topstories/Lewis-wind-farm-vetoed-.4004966.jp
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/topstories/Lewis-wind-farm-vetoed-.4004966.jp
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biffvernon
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They just so don't get it. New WTI record this morning at $118.05
The UK's renewable energy performance is a "national disgrace", environmental campaigners claim today.
The UK's renewable energy performance is a "national disgrace", environmental campaigners claim today.
Nemesis
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It's not saying no windfarms in Scotland. Just not there.
I agree that wave power could be developed...
I agree that wave power could be developed...
Flyfisher
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I think the rationale is that we don't need to blight the landscape with ugly wind turbines because we can have nuclear power stations instead - or new coal-fired power ones like that one recently proposed (approved?) in Kent somewhere :roll:biffvernon said:
I wonder how much fossil fuel is burnt by people flocking to the highlands to take in the unspoiled views? :wink:
Gareth Hughes
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Nemesis said:
But "just not there" soon morphs into "not over there either"
Nemesis
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I presume you read the article.
The readers' comments at the end of the article were interesting.
I was a bit puzzled by this, though :
"Scotland does not have an energy shortage. What it has is an INSULATION SHORTAGE! Almost every rural cottage has 2 ft thick stone walls that cannot be insulated - no cavity."
I was a bit puzzled by this, though :
"Scotland does not have an energy shortage. What it has is an INSULATION SHORTAGE! Almost every rural cottage has 2 ft thick stone walls that cannot be insulated - no cavity."
Lime
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As with all wind farms the local population hate them in the main.
They spoil views, distract the eye and cause sunlight to flicker for those living close.
I'd hate them if they were near me.
However if they were lining the local population's pockets I think a different view might be taken, at least by some.
Isn't this what wind turbines are all about?
Easy money in the form of subsidies for people, often of the green persuasion, for a wind farm somewhere it doesn't effect themselves.
What I would like to know is how much energy the UK's wind farms have REALLY produced in the last year?
Not some projected figure or notional generation capacity, the REAL figures.
Anyone know?
They spoil views, distract the eye and cause sunlight to flicker for those living close.
I'd hate them if they were near me.
However if they were lining the local population's pockets I think a different view might be taken, at least by some.
Isn't this what wind turbines are all about?
Easy money in the form of subsidies for people, often of the green persuasion, for a wind farm somewhere it doesn't effect themselves.
What I would like to know is how much energy the UK's wind farms have REALLY produced in the last year?
Not some projected figure or notional generation capacity, the REAL figures.
Anyone know?
I live within a mile of windfarm (20 odd I think) and I've not heard a single local make any comment about them at all. They are just a complete non issue. There certainly hasn't been any negative feeling at all. The only time they ever get mentioned is when giving directions to people when coming down.Lime said:
biffvernon
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Yes Lime, all the real data are in the public domain and mostly available from the British Wind Energy Association
Congratulations to Dale Vince and all at Ecotricity. The last of the twenty turbines at the end of my lane was commissioned this morning. It's great to see all twenty going round after the months of construction, supplying enough electricity for the whole Lincolnshire Marsh. They are beautiful, fascinating, elegant, clean, silent, sheer poetry in motion.
Such a shame that they are thirty years too late. Too late to stop global warming. Too late to stop the Lincolnshire Marsh from being flooded and my house becoming a rubble reef in the Greater North Sea. And all because the people would not heed the scientist's warnings, unable to see the connection between their profligate lives and the destruction of the Earth Systems upon which we depend for our survival.
Shame about the human species, they showed such promise.
Congratulations to Dale Vince and all at Ecotricity. The last of the twenty turbines at the end of my lane was commissioned this morning. It's great to see all twenty going round after the months of construction, supplying enough electricity for the whole Lincolnshire Marsh. They are beautiful, fascinating, elegant, clean, silent, sheer poetry in motion.
Such a shame that they are thirty years too late. Too late to stop global warming. Too late to stop the Lincolnshire Marsh from being flooded and my house becoming a rubble reef in the Greater North Sea. And all because the people would not heed the scientist's warnings, unable to see the connection between their profligate lives and the destruction of the Earth Systems upon which we depend for our survival.
Shame about the human species, they showed such promise.
Nemesis
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No, I disagree with that. That's your opinion. I find them vile and a blot of the landscpe. So many others I know do so too.
I wish that cash had been put into developing alternatives, and I try not to live too profligate a life.
biffvernon
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Harummph. It's all right for you - you don't live at 2 metres above sea level 
Nemesis
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No, but I don't think windfarms are lovely. I do think that it's all difficult in as much as that's what massive subsidies were given for, so that's what we got.
And I'm not perfect but I do try to tread lightly, far more so than many do.
And I'm not perfect but I do try to tread lightly, far more so than many do.
I've already given my opinions on this subject at length when we last discussed it. The decision is very good news - what a shame the reason given in (in most of the media at least) is just harm to birds etc. As I tried to argue before, it's about so much more than the birds. To anybody whose reaction is "They just so don't get it." Just read the readers' comments at the end of the Scotsman article. Learn something about Lewis and its unique landscape and culture - and now let's go for the tidal and wave power, and the SMALLER wind schemes which the locals actually support (like Biff's beautiful ones for example) - those are just so different from what was proposed for Lewis.
biffvernon
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So Lewis has a wonderful landscape - and most of it will still be there in a couple of centuries. But my landscape, the Lincolnshire Marsh, will become a seascape if we don't reverse the upward march of CO2. We have to act now and we have to act radically. We need to do everything - energy savings and all of the renewables just as fast as they can physically be manufactured. This is not the time to put any constraints on anything that helps reduce CO2.
The folk who 'just don't get it' are those who don't realize that within my children's lifetime, new homes will have to be found for most of the population of Bangla Desh and most of the populations of most of the world's largest cities and they will have to be fed after considerable areas of the best agricultural land is lost. That's just for starters. The prospect of reaching the tipping points that send us into the sort of climate that we had in the Eocene or even the end-Permian when 95% of life went extinct looks ever more likely unless we reduce CO2 back to around 350 ppm.
And we're still faffing about with the view of a hill side.
The folk who 'just don't get it' are those who don't realize that within my children's lifetime, new homes will have to be found for most of the population of Bangla Desh and most of the populations of most of the world's largest cities and they will have to be fed after considerable areas of the best agricultural land is lost. That's just for starters. The prospect of reaching the tipping points that send us into the sort of climate that we had in the Eocene or even the end-Permian when 95% of life went extinct looks ever more likely unless we reduce CO2 back to around 350 ppm.
And we're still faffing about with the view of a hill side.
Nemesis
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http://news.scotsman.com/opinion/Putting-our-faith-in-wind.4014373.jp
Hey have only recently joined the forum but are here to discuss so have to say I think to a certain extent people are missing the point with some of the comments.
To discuss whether the are attractive or not , in my mind misses the point ( for the record I am a fan ( no pun intended ) of wind farms and do think they look attractive ). Would you suggest that they are less attractive than a power station??
Secondly in some of the articles mentioned it talks of no real power output compared to this power station or that power station. Again in my mind that's not hugely relevant as fossil fuels are running out, shortly there wont be any to burn and these wind farms will produce 100 times more because the wind will never run out. We have to introduce these now so we can start to reduce are reliance on fossil fuels so that something is in place when they do finally run out.
We have to react to the problems we have created with the technology available to us, if we wait for this and that which could be better, less unattractive, more productive etc etc we will continue to rely on a polluting, scarce resource in the hope of a wonder solution, that could not ever materialise, turns up. Then if it doesn't turn up and the fuel runs out what do we do??
To discuss whether the are attractive or not , in my mind misses the point ( for the record I am a fan ( no pun intended ) of wind farms and do think they look attractive ). Would you suggest that they are less attractive than a power station??
Secondly in some of the articles mentioned it talks of no real power output compared to this power station or that power station. Again in my mind that's not hugely relevant as fossil fuels are running out, shortly there wont be any to burn and these wind farms will produce 100 times more because the wind will never run out. We have to introduce these now so we can start to reduce are reliance on fossil fuels so that something is in place when they do finally run out.
We have to react to the problems we have created with the technology available to us, if we wait for this and that which could be better, less unattractive, more productive etc etc we will continue to rely on a polluting, scarce resource in the hope of a wonder solution, that could not ever materialise, turns up. Then if it doesn't turn up and the fuel runs out what do we do??
Flyfisher
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Yes, 'antis' should be required to propose practical alternatives, both technologically and economically.
Very interesting letters in the Scotsman, in Nemesis's link. Whereas I take the point that wind farms are SOMETHING that is being done now - even if far from perfect - so we should not waste time endlessly debating about ways to save the sinking ship, it's certainly very hard not to feel that all the investment really should be going into other methods of generation.
Faced with e.g. Biff's opinion that it's either the population of Bangladesh or a pretty view, there is of course no argument - If it really were that simple.
IF we KNEW could stop climate change by covering the UK with wind farms; if it were absolutely certain (or even a likely chance) that Biff's house and the Lincolnshire country around it could be kept above sea level by, for example, surrounding Lincoln cathedral with several hundred 100 metre high wind turbines, then perhaps that architectural vandalism would have to be justified. But it's quite a deep philosophical issue, destroying one thing of value to save another. Imagine if it were CERTAIN that by actually demolishing Lincoln cathedral we could save several towns from destruction - or a more realistic example; the theory of the Just War, how many innocent people can be killed to save the lives of how many more? Is torture acceptable, if we know for certain that by using it on a terrorist suspect a dirty bomb attack can be prevented?
I'm fully aware that this is pushing the Lewis Wind Farm debate to ridiculous extremes, but really its the same argument, and the blanket enthusiastic embrace of ALL wind farms, however disruptive to fragile and valuable places, can't go without questioning.
BUT, I'm not sure. And I also want to keep on good terms with Biff - I'm hoping he'll make a door for me, though the way things are going, we may not be alive long enough to appreciate it.
Faced with e.g. Biff's opinion that it's either the population of Bangladesh or a pretty view, there is of course no argument - If it really were that simple.
IF we KNEW could stop climate change by covering the UK with wind farms; if it were absolutely certain (or even a likely chance) that Biff's house and the Lincolnshire country around it could be kept above sea level by, for example, surrounding Lincoln cathedral with several hundred 100 metre high wind turbines, then perhaps that architectural vandalism would have to be justified. But it's quite a deep philosophical issue, destroying one thing of value to save another. Imagine if it were CERTAIN that by actually demolishing Lincoln cathedral we could save several towns from destruction - or a more realistic example; the theory of the Just War, how many innocent people can be killed to save the lives of how many more? Is torture acceptable, if we know for certain that by using it on a terrorist suspect a dirty bomb attack can be prevented?
I'm fully aware that this is pushing the Lewis Wind Farm debate to ridiculous extremes, but really its the same argument, and the blanket enthusiastic embrace of ALL wind farms, however disruptive to fragile and valuable places, can't go without questioning.
BUT, I'm not sure. And I also want to keep on good terms with Biff - I'm hoping he'll make a door for me, though the way things are going, we may not be alive long enough to appreciate it.