Ledge & Brace Front Door project/ mortice lock & handle question

[Willowcat]

Hi,

We live in a 1600s thatched & granite cottage that we are hoping to slowly sympathetically restore as best we can. It is a bit of a wreck, needs loads & loads of work so a lifetime project. The cottage has been mucked about with a lot! …..All of the original beams have sadly gone, much of it isn’t liveable in, and well lots of modernising has been done over the years in a bad way. But, at the back, - in the part we don’t live in at all at the moment - there is an original ledge and brace door which is one of the few remaining original features It has quite a bit of rot in the frame and bottom trim, but I think it could look really nice once it has been restored and loved again. We would like that door, and area, to eventually be our main front door and entrance hall.

The biggy is that the insurance company wants us to put a 5 lever mortice dead lock on it right now so even though we are not ready to restore that part of the cottage yet, I suddenly have to think about how to sensitively put in a lock without ruining it asap!

I think the only area of wood thick enough for a locksmith to fit a dead lock would be lower down on one of the ledges.

Higher up, I am not sure whether to just stick with the thumb latch, but from the look of it the door looks like it may once have had a knob, or a rim lock…..you can see outlines - highlighted in red & white paint - through the paintwork where different locks and knobs must have been removed and filled in over the years. I will upload a photo. It would be lovely if anyone has any suggestions for what might be the most appropriate for the period and the cottage? (We have to put a 5 lever lock on it no matter what because of thatched insurance being very strict). I have wondered about a pull knob above the lock in cast iron and a ring door knocker….but I wonder whether that is too Victorian/ whether it will suit the style and age of the property. (It does have some victorian traces inside though….so old skirting boards in 2 bedrooms , and the windows are larger than I would imagine they would have been in the 1600s.) We also have some add on extensions that are 1950s/60s…so it isn’t all 1600s. I would love to restore it as historically accurately as I can, so any thoughts on what this door might have looked like in the 1600s, and what anyone would do when faced with having to add a deadlock & knob/handle of some sort to such a door……without compromising the old character, would be much appreciated.

 

[Cubist]

Hi There and Welcome,

We faces exactly the same problem when we first took this place on (Listed 1550-75, Oak Timber Frame and Thatched). The photo below is the solution I implemented at the time pending later CO approval for a more sympathetic and much stronger final design. Strong push-back from the CO and other exigencies have so far prevented that later proposal and that pictured is still in place 14 years later.

Its possible to buy a wooden boxed 5 lever deadbolt locking system from some specialist suppliers but I tailor made this one as the 'receiver block' on the right had to be let into a rather gnarled and somewhat damaged oak post. The receiver box also had to be larger to accommodate the locks standard plate and allow for the whole assembly to be bolted to the post.

You will find that installation of the lock and its housing in the door is easy but installing the receiver block is quite challenging. For you, this aspect may be harder as you say that the door frame itself is in poor condition.

If you're comfortable with the woodwork, or know someone who is, then maybe this could work for you.

Cheers, Cubist

 

[Cubist]

A point I forgot to mention, you will not be able to install a mortice lock in the ledger, The lock itself is likely to be circa 15mm thick and, without a very good morticing tool/cutter, it would be near impossible to cut a housing for the lock through the end-grain of the ledger timber. There is a very high risk that insufficient wood would be left to form the locks housing, and/or the ledger would split and perhaps fail completely and/or one or more nails would be encountered the removal of which would cause the plank to lose its connection to the ledger board. IMO - you should make no attempt to use the ledger for this purpose.

 

[Flyfisher]

Is it your main exit door?

We have some external doors like that but our insurer only wants the final exit door to have a 5-lever deadlock. Bolts on all the other doors suffice.

 

[Stevers]

Our back door has the original 2/3 lever lock from 1879, that door has never been a point of entry and does not have an alarm keypad. When we are away or locked up we also bolt the door top and bottom - all as it was as we found it. Our potential and actual entry doors of course have 5 lever locks that I fitted plus alarm keypads.

A five lever rim lock should be an option, but bizarrely, the only (expensive) one I can find cannot be locked from the inside! As you intend to make this door a point of entry in the future I second Cubists suggestion to box up a standard and therefore inexpensive 5 lever mortice lock, but perhaps to make the boxing in more comprehensive to further strengthen what will be a fairly weak door. Ideally such a door should be ledged, framed and braced. So vertical framing down each side jointed into the ledges.

 

[Willowcat]

Hi There and Welcome,

We faces exactly the same problem when we first took this place on (Listed 1550-75, Oak Timber Frame and Thatched). The photo below is the solution I implemented at the time pending later CO approval for a more sympathetic and much stronger final design. Strong push-back from the CO and other exigencies have so far prevented that later proposal and that pictured is still in place 14 years later.

Its possible to buy a wooden boxed 5 lever deadbolt locking system from some specialist suppliers but I tailor made this one as the 'receiver block' on the right had to be let into a rather gnarled and somewhat damaged oak post. The receiver box also had to be larger to accommodate the locks standard plate and allow for the whole assembly to be bolted to the post.

You will find that installation of the lock and its housing in the door is easy but installing the receiver block is quite challenging. For you, this aspect may be harder as you say that the door frame itself is in poor condition.

If you're comfortable with the woodwork, or know someone who is, then maybe this could work for you.

Cheers, Cubist
View attachment 15142

Hi Cubist,



Thank you so much for your reply & welcome

I really like the photo of the oak box and receiver that you made. We are listed as well, so my thoughts would be very similar to yours….to put something as honest, sympathetic, and elegant as possible in place so the property is properly insured, and to show the CO what we have done when we go through everything later on with the architect etc. A process we hope to start - fingers crossed - next year but which we have been warned, and know, will likely end up taking a very, very, long time before we see the light of day !! :-(

Stevers mentions that ideally the vertical framing should be jointed into the ledgers, ours unfortunately isn’t like that, so I think we do need to make sure the lock boxing is as strong as possible so that when we go out the door can’t be pushed in.

If you are happy to share, I would love to see what your 2nd design idea was, as you mention it was even more sympathetic & even more solid which has me intrigued!

My husband does do woodworking in his ahem “spare time” as a hobby…just never seems to have any spare time!….. but, I think it is something he would love to have a go at. We bought him a Shaper Origin cutting tool last Xmas which is supposed to be able to cut out small shapes, so that might be a help with something like this.

Your door looks really beautiful, inspiring, and very old. I think I might have a go at gently stripping our door - I think it is old pine, & I was worried about what I might find in the way of filler and old lock scars underneath the paint - but even the little oak wooden key hole fill in pieces on yours still look just part of the character / natural history of time, and doesn’t detract from the beauty of the door. I absolutely love the look of silvered aged old oak, can’t beat it.

 

[Willowcat]

Is it your main exit door?

We have some external doors like that but our insurer only wants the final exit door to have a 5-lever deadlock. Bolts on all the other doors suffice.

Hi Flyfisher,

Yes it will be our main exit door. Can I ask which insurance company you use/ or might recommend? (It needs to be a thatched insurance). Thank you.

 

[Willowcat]

Our back door has the original 2/3 lever lock from 1879, that door has never been a point of entry and does not have an alarm keypad. When we are away or locked up we also bolt the door top and bottom - all as it was as we found it. Our potential and actual entry doors of course have 5 lever locks that I fitted plus alarm keypads.

A five lever rim lock should be an option, but bizarrely, the only (expensive) one I can find cannot be locked from the inside! As you intend to make this door a point of entry in the future I second Cubists suggestion to box up a standard and therefore inexpensive 5 lever mortice lock, but perhaps to make the boxing in more comprehensive to further strengthen what will be a fairly weak door. Ideally such a door should be ledged, framed and braced. So vertical framing down each side jointed into the ledges.

Hi Stevens,

It looks like our door may have had an old square lock once - perhaps like the 1879 one you mention on your door? I can see the old lock lines on our door through the cream paintwork which I have highlighted in red &n it does look like it was a very old lock that was once there.

Separate to the insurance requiring us to have a 5 lever lock (!)…. I would also love to restore the door back to how it would have looked originally. Perhaps even sourcing a very old lock (for aesthetics and restoration, not security or insurance!) and reinstating it.

I agree, when you think about it, the door isn’t that strong! The door itself isn’t connected to the vertical struts, so could be pushed in if someone was determined enough. On the inside you can see that once it would have had an old metal bar across it, which would have helped. But, even if we re-instated something like that/ it wouldn’t help as an exit door.

I really liked Cubists solution of making an oak box to encase the 5 lever lock in, if we can make something like that & position it subtly further down on the door, and put top and bottom bolts on - hopefully that will make it secure while keeping the character.

I would also love to re-instate an original lock where you can see there would once have been one. If you think your door & lock outline looks similar to ours, I would love to see a photo and then perhaps that can guide me as to what I should be looking for in reclamation yards. Anything to help with the “detectiving” of how the door might once have looked would be super. …and very exciting!

 

[Flyfisher]

Hi Flyfisher,

Yes it will be our main exit door. Can I ask which insurance company you use/ or might recommend? (It needs to be a thatched insurance). Thank you.

I'm with NFU. They seem to be ok with old and listed buildings and we're a bit of a mixture with an original c.1550 timber frame seection, then a later rubble wall addition and an c18 mainly chalk block section, but it's all under pantiles so I've no experience of thatch implications. I seem to recall a post or two on here in recent years about NFU moving away from thatched properties but that's the limit of my knowledge about them. All I can suggest is to contact them and see what they would quote.

 

[Cubist]

Hello again Willowcat,

You're more than welcome. However, I'm sorry to have to tell you that 'spare time' for you and your other half is now very much a thing of the past for you both. There will be a constant supply of small and large tasks and projects that will drive you to distraction and leave you wondering where the years, and your bank balance, went. That's certainly been the case here. That aside, theres nothing quite like helping to preserve these old places for future generations while making a home for yourselves and leaving some small hallmarks of your contributions along the way.

Looking again at the photos I think you need to take a close look at the doorframe as the ripples and rolls in the exterior paintwork suggest to me that wet-rot has set in in the header and legs. If I'm right then pressing even gently with a fingertip against those sections of the paint will result in some inward movement and compression of the rotten wood below - there should be none at all. If this is the case then there is little else that can be done to save it and the frame must be replaced. This of course would compromise the security of the door as you may find there is nowhere that would support the installation of a new locks receiver box (keep/keeper). Again, if I'm right about the wet rot, this will be a product of water penetration though what seems to be a mortar caulking between the stones of the building and the doorframe and this too would have to be addressed if the frame must indeed be replaced. Also, it's not clear from the photos but the doorframe will probably include a cill that would also have to come out and be replaced.

But here's the upside - yes there is one, even if I'm right about the frame. The door will have to come off and that will make it so much easier to find out what timber its made from (hopefully you'll be pleasantly surprised) while stripping the paint and making any essential repairs and modifications. Told ya - spare time IS a thing of the past now.

If I think on I take and send a photo of our front door as it is and provide a description of the planned replacement which I'll also have to root out which, among other things has been a source of irritable battles with two COs now - I'll miss it I ever get to replace it though as its one of my primary 'time for a haircut' guides.
Cheers for now, Cubist

P.S. Regarding insurance, Lloyd and White may be an option but whoever you talk to pay particular attention to the Re-build Cost Estimate to make sure its realistic. You'll find that's one of the big gotchas for Period Home Owner.