Leaking Lead

[agbagb]

Quite possibly one for our leading Lead expert, Doug.

You may remember the saga of getting the scaffolding up so we could have a new roof. It all eventually happened and all was well until we got the combined wind and rain.
Doug did point out the detail of the flashing was incorrect but it didn't get put right at the time, I think it just got an extra squirt of leadmate.

So now my lack of insistence at the time has come back to haunt me.

Problem 1. Around the Chimney

Problem 2. Ridge abutment

I'm about to call the roofers back, hopefully they can fix things from roof crawlers, any ideas what I should be insisting they do?
Should I just be happy with a bodge as long as it keeps the rain out?
Should I be looking for a skilled lead worker to do a proper job?

This is the only backwards step I've had for a while, the rest of cottage is coming along nicely now, I'll have to post some updates.

Cheers

 

[jocelyn plummer]

Ouch--that's painful! Judging by what AG has told me about 'your' rain, and what we have suffered down here, I reckon you should avoid the bodge repair and have a skilled lead worker to fix it. After all said and done you have spent many painstaking hours working there, so it would be a great shame to risk the same thing, or more damage happening in a year or two's time. I think we are likely to get more severe storms in years to come. maybe AG would be happy to recommend the guys he used for his roof work last year.

I assume that you will be calling the chaps back who did the work anyway----
Joss xx

 

[agbagb]

Thanks Joss, I'm trying to get hold of the guys that did the roof but judging by the work on the lead so far I don't think they have all the skills to do a proper long lasting job. It's the only job on the whole project (apart from fitting a boiler) that I've not done myself, the missus has banned me from the roof. I would like to skill up for it and do it myself but I've got to do as I'm told so its that old problem of having to rely on others.

The missus is up this weekend for a site inspection, the first since way before Christmas and I might get a chance for beer with AG if he's not fishing, I'll be asking him who he used. I just hope it doesn't involve scaffolding.

Andy

 

[MatthewC]

Andy

On the second photo above, that lead coming round the corner of the chimney isn't cut into the bricks is it? So you have a vertical edge of lead which goes across the bricks and so will let in any water which runs down the face of the chimney. There's a similar sort of issue at the top apex of the lead in the last photo. Are these the places that leadmate has been used? I reckon you are right about the skill of the people who did it.

That's a lovely wooden roof frame in the third picture - do you have more like that? :mrgreen:

 

[Penners]

On the second photo above, that lead coming round the corner of the chimney isn't cut into the bricks is it? So you have a vertical edge of lead which goes across the bricks and so will let in any water which runs down the face of the chimney. There's a similar sort of issue at the top apex of the lead in the last photo. Are these the places that leadmate has been used? I reckon you are right about the skill of the people who did it.

My thoughts exactly. In both cases the water running down the chimney can flow behind the lead.

One other thought - on the pitch of the ridge abutment roof, are the pantiles that disappear underneath the lead complete? If they've been cut off before the shape curves upwards from their "valleys", the water that flows down the valleys could conceivably overflow underneath the lead (if you see what I mean).

As to the rectification, I think you should undoubtedly get the roofers to come back and ensure that you have what you paid them for - a properly made roof that keeps out the water. No ifs, buts, compromises or sealant lash-ups.

 

[jocelyn plummer]

I might get a chance for beer with AG if he's not fishing,

Ha ha!!!! I'll tx him to be on the alert!!!

 

[agbagb]

On the second photo above, that lead coming round the corner of the chimney isn't cut into the bricks is it? So you have a vertical edge of lead which goes across the bricks and so will let in any water which runs down the face of the chimney. There's a similar sort of issue at the top apex of the lead in the last photo. Are these the places that leadmate has been used? I reckon you are right about the skill of the people who did it.

That's a lovely wooden roof frame in the third picture - do you have more like that? :mrgreen:

Yes on the chimney corner is where the extra leadmate went. Judging by where the rain came through the current leak is higher up possibly from the apex and where the lead goes under the ridge stones. On the ridge to wall abutment side it could be the same and the lap between the sheets looks like its only a couple of inches and it's not dressed down.

The timber in that wall is the top of the upper cruck. A very nice find, it was all covered up when we bought the place.

My thoughts exactly. In both cases the water running down the chimney can flow behind the lead.

One other thought - on the pitch of the ridge abutment roof, are the pantiles that disappear underneath the lead complete? If they've been cut off before the shape curves upwards from their "valleys", the water that flows down the valleys could conceivably overflow underneath the lead (if you see what I mean).

As to the rectification, I think you should undoubtedly get the roofers to come back and ensure that you have what you paid them for - a properly made roof that keeps out the water. No ifs, buts, compromises or sealant lash-ups.

Yes if the tiles are cut back the lead would have to extend over the next tile to get a fully gully.
I'm really not sure they are able to do a proper job. From the the research I've now done it would need welded lead parts which I think will not be their strong point. First I've got to get hold of them the phone number I have is dead.

 

[Penners]

I've got to get hold of them the phone number I have is dead.

That doesn't sound like good news. Might they be better suited to herding cattle than laying roofs?

 

[DJH]

Oh dear. Sorry to hear about your problem agbagb. Looking at the first picture of the front of the chimney you can see that the front apron doesn't extend past the edge of the brickwork and out under the side flashing which means it finishes with the corner of the brickwork instead of turning around it and back up the slope to give adequate cover at this point.



The side flashing should of course turn around the front of the brickwork and be tucked into the joint where the sealant is and should be a vertical straight edge not rounded as it is now.

In the picture of the side flashings showing the lead fixed into a chase cut in the brickwork, it should properly have been fixed as a step flashing. The lead where it folds into the chase looks as though it has an extended or wide shoulder on it as if it's not properly tucked into the chase. This can happen if the chase hasn't been cut at an even depth all the way along it's length and where the chase is not deep enough the lead will bend like this after repeated attempts to get it to fit and of course isn't in deep enough at this point to give cover.

The short piece of lead at the ridge doesn't appear to extend over the ridge which is not a problem in it'self if the flashing from the other side extends up and over the ridge to give adequate cover which it obviously doesn't. In these situations a saddle or capping piece is usually fitted with the top edge tucked into the joint above where the lead is at the moment and then extended down under the ridge tile where the edge is turned up into a welt as a damp check, and the ridge bedded on top.

I hope you can get this resolved without too much aggravation...

Doug

 

[88v8]

It's more than annoying to find one has employed incompetents. Makes one paranoid about employing anyone at all.
In our previous house, one area of my leadwork leaked, probably as simple as inadequate lap, but at least I hadn't paid someone else to do it.

It's almost worse when they are not bodging intentionally, they simply don't know how, so one has to know oneself how to do everything before one can even employ someone to do whatever it is that one thinks one knows how to do but doesn't want to.

Spent most of yesterday at a garage 40 miles away where they put an expensive new stainless exhaust on the Landy. Not very happy with the result. Now I'm having to spend time on t'internet trying to work out how it can be redesigned to eliminate its sonic deficiencies.

Meanwhile the dig for the garage goes on, the promised turnaround of the skip has not happened so spoil is being dumped on what used to be the drive, whence it will have to be dug again at my expense.

Arrrrgh

Ivor

 

[plasticpigeon]

Were things ever any other way? Did people used to be more skilled??

 

[Penners]

Meanwhile the dig for the garage goes on

:shock: Are you saying that there's a garage buried somewhere in your garden, but you're not sure where?

the promised turnaround of the skip has not happened

That's par for the course. In all of my considerable number of years doing renovations I have never once come across a skip company who will collect a full skip promptly. They'll bring you an empty one like lightning, but you can sometimes wait weeks for a full one to be collected. :evil:

 

[jocelyn plummer]

Arrrrgh

Fear not, AG on your case--for the beer anyway!!!!

I hope his roofers are still on the phone-----must have done a good job as he has not complained about leaks to me---and believe me he would-------!!!!!

 

[Zebra]

Hmm, yes, trying to find a picture of the "saddle" piece that my very good roofer put on my ridge to wall abutment - a smashing bit of flashing - but I haven't got one, sorry, and it's dark now. Very annoying for you, but it doesn't sound to me like a good idea to get the same chaps back, they'll only layer bodge upon bodge. Surely better to get it taken out and done again by someone else, I know it's major, but it'd be peace of mind for you to get it sorted properly. Perhaps they could even cut a stepped flashing into the brickwork, instead of the diagonal slice.

PS Sneak up onto the roof when your missus isn't there!

 

[Penners]

a smashing bit of flashing

That sounds as though it could be the title of the PPUK forum song.

 

[agbagb]

Thank you all,

We just got back yesterday from a full week on the job. Good news I did manage to get hold of the builders and they came straight away. As I suspected the addition off more leadmate sealant and some tapping down is the best cure I'm going to get for now. Hopefully it'll hold until I can arrange something more permanent.

After studying many of the roofs below and around us, how they have tackled things seems fairly typical. Maybe the odd leak was always expected in these lowly dwellings, skilled leadworkers only being employed on the more prestigious buildings. In this respect I would be happier for an upgrade.

So a half positive result and after the weather we have had I'm happy that the rest of roof has performed perfectly.

And progress elsewhere. The bathroom floor is now dyed and lacquered, the bottom of the cruck cleaned up, filled and shellac'd and a plinth made so I could un-box one of the shiny new things.

But then the front door frame collapsed and I spotted another bit floor supported on beam that wasn't supported on anything. So the scheduled of works changed a bit, with some serious scarfing and additional joinery. After that I also managed to do some trials of re-polishing the cast iron bathtub, so far looking good.

 

[Penners]

Maybe the odd leak was always expected in these lowly dwellings

Hell, no!! If a roofer is paid to make you a roof, it should be fit for purpose - which means watertight - regardless of the "status" of the dwelling. If it's not, then he hasn't fulfilled his side of the contract.

That principle is timeless and classless

 

[agbagb]

Maybe the odd leak was always expected in these lowly dwellings

Hell, no!! If a roofer is paid to make you a roof, it should be fit for purpose - which means watertight - regardless of the "status" of the dwelling. If it's not, then he hasn't fulfilled his side of the contract.

That principle is timeless and classless

Agreed, it should be fit for purpose but unless the details of how exactly that is achieved the tradesman is left with a choice of how to achieve that. The higher quality option would have to be specified to achieve the purpose with the highest degree of certainty. If the cheaper option fails and the tradesman carries out work to rectify the problem at no cost then it wouldn't be a breach of contract under current law.

If only say 1 in 10 fail, and then only 1 in 10 of those are noticed and reported then it's likely that inferior practices would become the norm particularly when the buildings where tenant occupied. Back in the day I don't think many Landlords would have been bothered about occasional small leaks in extreme weather.

I think the lesson here are:
Not all old building techniques are perfect all the time, even if adapted with modern sealants etc.
If you want a top quality job it needs to be specified in detail.
Builders and tradespeople tend to do what they know and this isn't always what you need.
If you don't know what to specify ask the extremely knowledgeable folks at PPUK (before hand)

 

[jocelyn plummer]

Sounds good Andy--so glad a compromise has been reached---it'll probably be fine now!! Love the radiator!!

 

[agbagb]

Sounds good Andy--so glad a compromise has been reached---it'll probably be fine now!! Love the radiator!!

I do dislike having to make compromises, but I'm not going to dwell on it too much. What I will do is take on all your helpful suggestions and draw up how I think it should be done to get a proper quote.

It's something I would love to do myself, but Zebra I'd never get away with it, if I didn't kill myself the missus would.