leaded light window repair

[shobo]

Hi
My cottage has leaded light windows. Don't know how old they are. They might be very old or relatively recent. Each window has eight mini panes (ok, that's not the technical term) with lead cames (or I assume they are lead). One of the mini panes has a tiny hole from which has formed a little crack. Its not worth replacing atm. However, can anyone advise on where to go to replace these mini panes if there is any further damage ?

 

[plasticpigeon]

If lead, the cames can be peeled open and new glass inserted, then the lead put back in the right place a resoldered. I bet there is someone near you that can do that. leaded glass is one of the traditional skills that seems to be thriving.

 

[Kearn]

It's the glass old or new? Variable thickness, a bit wavy and slightly discouloured or clear, smooth and uniform?

There is a conservation school of thought that says a slightly damaged old/original pane of glass shouldn't be replaced. This would definitely be the SPAB view. We have a few small cracks/gaps in some of the original panes in our leaded lights, and we have less original panes left them newer. Suffice to say, the cracks remain in the beautiful old glass.

If replacement is needed, any window/glass shop should be able to easily supply a piece of glass and fit if required. Lead is very workable and I've replaced a number of newer broken panes in our windows with ease.

 

[Kearn]

Forgot to say, there are also traditional places dotted around who will manufacturer and provide replacement 'old' glass in the correct methods. We have an old store nearby selling stained windows, mirrors, glass etc - specialising in traditional materials and methods.

I imagine the views will be divided on whether fake old glass should be put back in if you need to replace. Guess that's dependent on the rest of the panes, windows, property, listing etc ...

 

[Flyfisher]

Is there really such a thing as 'fake old glass'? If it is made by the same method as the original glass then isn't it really just an honest repair, i.e. Repairing/replacing something with the same materials and methods as the original?

If there is such a thing as 'fake old glass' and it's against some conservation ethos then what about re-rendering a house with lime or replacing a rotten window with an exact copy using new wood? Is that similarly ruinous to our period properties?

I understand the 'Trigger's Broom' argument but the fact is that nothing lasts forever.

 

[Kearn]

Personally, I wouldn't disagree Flyfisher and it wasn't intended as an inflammatory post. There are some who believe if it's not old, don't try to make it look so. I'm not one of them, as long as we aren't taking Disney pastiche of course. Correct/appropriate materials and methods repairs are the only acceptable approach in my mind.

The point that mattered more, was as the OP stated, if it doesn't HAVE to be replaced, then leaving the original in situ if truly old, would be preferable to replacing with new regardless of manufacturing technique.

 

[Flyfisher]

Not taken as inflammatory at all, just exploring the range of views really.

I generally go along with the view about not making a repair artificially look old and agree that the honest approach is best (I.e. a like for like repair/replacement using the appropriate materials).

But it struck me that glass is slightly different in that a new piece of glass is going to look pretty much identical to an old piece of glass, assuming it is made by the same process. So yes, replacing a piece of 'wavy' glass with an optically perfect piece of float glass is likely to offend some sensibilities, but if replaced with new piece of glass manufactured in the old way then surely the end result would be essentially undetectable, even though it would qualify as an honest repair. Plus, it would actually be an improvement because a broken piece of glass is most definitely a flawed piece of glass.

I guess it's a matter of degree. A small crack in one pane of a leaded window might be acceptable but surely no one would suggest keeping a window in which every pane was cracked? Unless the key thing is for something to be old for old's sake?

 

[El Greyo]

If lead, the cames can be peeled open and new glass inserted, then the lead put back in the right place a resoldered. I bet there is someone near you that can do that. leaded glass is one of the traditional skills that seems to be thriving.

Do you have any tips for the soldering? What sort solder did you use and did you use a soldering iron?

We had a go but with not much success. Only had a 40W soldering iron and electrical solder but found the solder would just bead and run off. I suspected that we needed a hotter iron, different solder or we were going about it in completely the wrong way.

 

[Flyfisher]

I think a 40W iron would be too small. Solder beading and run off is usually a result of the work piece not being clean or hot enough.

Many years ago I made a terrrarium from a kit, similar to the photo below, and used a 140W 'gun-type' soldering iron. I think the solder was supplied with the kit along with some flux, so probably not electrical solder. I don't recall it being particularly difficult as long as the lead cames were held securely in position before soldering the joint.

I don't know if modern electrical solder would work very well as it is mostly lead-free these days with a higher melting point. Perhaps plumbing solder & flux would do the job - unless that has also gone lead-free these days. I'd bet there are loads of online 'craft' shops that would sell all the correct materials.

 

[TheForge]

Hi Shobo, did I see you mention hamstone in another post? If I did I guess you must be in the South Somerset area? There’s a chap in Ilminster called Jim Turnock who’s a specialist in leaded lights, search for JM Glass on the web.

 

[Owain]

Plumbing has gone lead-free on potable water but any proper time served plumber should be able to work with lead.

 

[Me!]

Do you have any tips for the soldering? What sort solder did you use and did you use a soldering iron?

We had a go but with not much success. Only had a 40W soldering iron and electrical solder but found the solder would just bead and run off. I suspected that we needed a hotter iron, different solder or we were going about it in completely the wrong way.

I think my soldering iron is 100 watts and that only just manages enough heat for working on windows on a cold day. Mine isn't a thermostatic one though and in hot weather it can get too hot so if I was buying again today I would definitely pay for a more powerful iron but with thermostatic control. The solder I use is pure lead as far as I'm aware, and is not cored with flux like my electrical solder. The flux I use is tallow which works fine, but does require the surfaces to be cleaned with wire wool first.
If you are working on an opening casement, then do unscrew the hinges and lie the window down to solder it as that is much easier than working on a vertical surface.

However, can anyone advise on where to go to replace these mini panes if there is any further damage ?

Tatra Glass have a good reputation on this forum for supplying restoration glass.

 

[Kearn]

...keeping a window in which every pane was cracked?

Thankfully ours aren't in that state, just the occasional small corner missing or crack across a small pane. I think of it as a bit of added ventilation!

I suppose the trade off for replacement, could also be considered as how much disruption there may be to the lead or window itself - especially if this isn't undertaken sympathetically - I've seen some windows with fairly obvious re-solder work, inappropriately applied/coloured putty and even distressed lead. Many of our panes have unfortunately been previously replaced, some time ago, but still... it makes the originals stand out that much more when the light catches them!

 

[plasticpigeon]

If lead, the cames can be peeled open and new glass inserted, then the lead put back in the right place a resoldered. I bet there is someone near you that can do that. leaded glass is one of the traditional skills that seems to be thriving.

Do you have any tips for the soldering? What sort solder did you use and did you use a soldering iron?

We had a go but with not much success. Only had a 40W soldering iron and electrical solder but found the solder would just bead and run off. I suspected that we needed a hotter iron, different solder or we were going about it in completely the wrong way.

I'm sorry I haven't done this job myself, but there is a lady on my raod who does it and she has explained what is possible. Some electrical solder is still lead based. The lead free variety will have a melting point that is too high. If you dont have an iron hot enough, you could heat up a metal bar in a flame as an iron if you have some metal handy. Perhaps an old chisel would do as it would need a wooden handle so you don't burn yourself, but I have not done this myself I'm afraid.

 

[El Greyo]

Thanks for the replies.

Yes, thinking about it, if I can't heat up the cames enough, it is no wonder the solder beads and runs off. The electrical solder I had was old and I think something like 50:50 or 60:40 tin:lead. If I try again I'll either invest in a beefier soldering iron or I'll get a professional.

 

[MatthewC]

If you dont have an iron hot enough, you could heat up a metal bar in a flame as an iron if you have some metal handy. Perhaps an old chisel would do as it would need a wooden handle so you don't burn yourself, but I have not done this myself I'm afraid.

I have seen a professional who used a proper version of that doing a stained glass window - in his hand he held a device with a small cylinder from which a flame heated a metal (copper?) bar (about two inches up from the tip) and the tip was the item that was placed on the lead to melt it. I think this allows you to control the amount of heat far more precisely.