Lead lined gutters

[Moo]

Following a rather destructive overflow the other night, we've had our builder round to clear the blockage and suggest ways to avoid a repeat performance (this may sound a rather feeble thing to do, but we both suffer from vertigo and said gutter is three storeys up.)

We're mulling over several alternative solutions to the blockage problem, but a much more serious issue has come to light:
In several places the lead lining has been patched (not by us, I hasten to add) and our builder suspects that one or more of these has failed, which means that there could well have been leakage going on for quite a long time.
The cheap solution (favoured by the OH) is to re-patch with some new stuff that will last a bit longer, or give the whole thing a coating of the stuff edge-to-edge.
I'm inclined to go along with this so that the gutter is waterproof until scaffolding has to go up for the next re-painting, and then bit on the bullet and have all the lead replaced. OH is far from keen.

His argument is that we don't know how old the lead is (true) and anyway, you can tell by looking whether or not it's reached the end of its useful life. So why not carry on patching.

Are there any facts that I can produce to convince him of the error of his ways? (Or - is he right and I'm wrong? It has been known.)

 

[skier-hughes]

Slap him a few times.
If that doesn't work, try harder slaps.

Jo seems to find this works great.

Been busy in the allotment?

 

[Ian Bond]

Not sure how your gutters are arranged, but just in case my situation is similar...

My gutters have split at the wiped joints (and between them) in several places, probably due to thermal stress.

The gutters have a very shallow fall, spanning a terrace, so you can''t make conventional drip and lap joints, which make better allowance for movement, hence the cracks.

Many patch repairs have been made over the years, but if course these are all temporary, lasting a couple of years. Better than doing nothing though.

I found a product called T-Pren, which is designed for problem gutters like mine, and am considering giving it a go. Hopefully it will allow me to piece in new sections of lead gutter, incorporating expansion joints. It's claimed to last a good few decades. Hmmm....

See:
http://www.leadsheetassociation.org.uk/media//pdfs/LSA_Bulletin_Gutter.pdf

Might be worth looking into. I'd be interested to hear if anyone's got any experience of repairing lead gutters, and can advise if this is a good approach or not...

 

[Ian Bond]

And a clear description here:

http://www.britishlead.co.uk/blmweb/tpren1.htm

 

[Lime]

The T-Pren plus joints look a good idea if fitted correctly.
therein lies a problem...getting a continuous water-proof welded lead joint requires quite a lot of skill.
Considering it appears to be a rare occurrence to have lead fitted "properly" with no underfelt under it and on clean wooden boards or clean stone I'll not be holding my breath.

Getting a good weld on old lead would be difficult too.

 

[Jon Maine]

Moo

Can you get some pictures of the valley and measurements of entire bay widths and lengths inc falls posted. Can advise at that point a best course of action. Digi camera spirit level and someone with a head for heights?

 

[Ian Bond]

The T-Pren plus joints look a good idea if fitted correctly.
therein lies a problem...getting a continuous water-proof welded lead joint requires quite a lot of skill.
Considering it appears to be a rare occurrence to have lead fitted "properly" with no underfelt under it and on clean wooden boards or clean stone I'll not be holding my breath.

Getting a good weld on old lead would be difficult too.

... in that case I think I'll weigh the lead in and put pvc gutters in :mrgreen:

 

[Jon Maine]

Well carrier bags are a problem couldnt you glue a few of those together and weigh the lead in?? 8)

 

[Jon Maine]

Anyhow, tpren is good have used it several times, if the neoprene expansion strip lasts 50 years couldnt we just do away with the lead and use neoprene, after all scrap prices are high!! :twisted:

 

[Ian Bond]

Thanks Jon - and perhaps the neoprene won't get pinched like lead does

 

[chuckey]

You don't say if the gutters are supported on brackets or are internal ones sitting on wood? Lead lasts for ever in the absence of acid - roman lead exists in museums. So if there is no thining of the lead you're good to repair. That neoprene stuff is only for gutters supported on wood. If they are conventional gutters, I would line them with plastic DPC stuck on with, yes you have guessed, silicone. Its about £50 a metre cheaper then replacing and rewiping a dirty overlap will lead to a bad joint. An alternative would be to line them with "flash banding". What you need is a nice sunny day to hose out the muck and to clean up the internal surface. Then a really cold day to put the flash banding on. On a hot day it handles like old knicker elastic thats covered in tar - impossible to do a good job.
Frank

 

[Moo]

Many, many thanks for all the helpful suggestions. It's going to be a long slog, convincing the OH that we may well have a serious problem.
On the other hand, your post, Chuckey, has given me hope. I was going to ask a supplementary question, but you've answered it, I suspect. The OH maintains that if lead looks good it must be ok, because it will either have cracks or have started to crystallise, and I needed confirmation of this from someone who knows about such things - but how does one tell if it's thinning?
So it looks as though patching will do the trick - but will that expandable joint system work if it's just put on top of the lead? Our builder confirmed that re-welding old lead can be very tricky and not always satisfactory.

Just to clarify things - it's a box gutter, and I'm assuming the lead is sitting on top of wood. Which means that if, as I suspect, there's been some long-standing seepage, there could well be some rather rotten wood lurking out of sight. And, of course, the only way to find out would be to lift some of the lead and have a look. Would it be possible to do that and put the lead back without causing expensive damage?


ps
Walked past a new estate of 'executive' houses today in the rain (used to be a car-park near the river, Gareth; well-known firm of local developers) There were two leaky (plastic) gutters gushing water on to the front gardens. Can't have been up there for more than a couple of years.

 

[Ian Bond]

Frank

The T-pren joints are specifically designed for parapet gutters, and therefore will be perfectly OK to sit on masonry too.

Patching with dpc and silicon isn't going to last more than a year, perhaps two before it leaks.

 

[Moo]

Thanks for that, Ian. I shall print it off and present it to the builder.

 

[Nemesis]

Article in Cornerstone (SPAB mag) about how people who can work with lead are becoming an endangered species. Haven't read it properly as yet but will seek it out.

 

[Ian Bond]

Plumbers.

All push fit plastic nowadays.

 

[Ian Bond]

Moo

He might not be too keen, for the reasons Lime mentioned.

I'm only considering the system as what is hopefully a solution to an inherent design fault in my gutters.

I can't think of a better solution, given that I can't alter the building to accommodate a better gutter design as I'm in a terrace.

I've tried all sorts of 'plastic' repairs over the years, and they've all failed within a year or two.

 

[Moo]

Ah, me. It looks as though it will have to be plastic patching-up now, in the hope that it will last until the scaffolding goes up in a few years time.

 

[Ian Bond]

That's exactly what I've done, Moo.

I used glass fibre mesh and a 2 part metal repair epoxy to patch the split around the joint, and covered it with this gunk:

http://www.thompsonsweatherproofing.co.uk/products/product.jsp?id=20

I suppose you could use pieces of lead flashing to cover holes, and glue them on with an epoxy. I couldn't get the flashing to fit around the raised wiped joint though, hence my plastic repair.

I'm not proud of using those high VOC compounds, but it had to be done as a stop gap, until I can afford the £££ and time to carry out a proper repair. That could be years away - so I'll just keep my beady eye on the gutters.

I must admit that as a temporary, emergency fix that Frank's suggestions would probably do just as well.