LBCs required ... and time limit for enforcement?

[Jezzaaa]

Hi all,

Happy New Year to you all!

I'm new to the forum, and new to old houses etc...so I would be grateful for some advice.

It's concerning LBCs and Conservation Officers and planning permission. The house in question is a Grade II listed and is in a conservation area, and the proposal is to make some internal wall changes to make best use of the first floor space. I believe (but may be wrong) that I won't need PP since it's just internal changes. But obviously would need LBCs. I haven't made any enquiries with the authorities because I was hoping to gain some insight into whats possible and what things they definitely wouldn't allow.

The house was originally built mid 16th Century, and has had a large rear two-storey extension added in the 1970s. The extension has created a new hallway and rooms running across the entire back side of the property, with the original rear wall left untouched but now enclosed.

The wall to be removed is a 3.5metre section of the original rear wall (now enclosed) on the first floor. It's timbered at the ceiling level, and I would like to remove the laths/plaster from between the timbers, leaving an open space between the original bedroom and the small room added by the extension. I don't need to change the timbers at all. Does anyone know if this is likely to be allowed? Or if it's something they would definitely refuse?

A couple of other quick questions about the Conservation Officers; how would they know that works had been carried out in the past if no-one sought permission to do it? Having read some stuff on google, I'm a bit concerned that I'm now responsible for anything the previous owner may have done that he didn't have permissions for. I have a list of LBCs which have been received for the property, but can't see how I would know if anything's been done that isn't on the list.

Also, is it like standard planning permission where they can't enforce after the alterations have stood for four years? Or is there no time frame? Do they do regular visits to listed properties, or only react to reports etc?

Thanks in advance

 

[Flyfisher]

Welcome to the forum. I might as well get the usual disclaimer out of the way; each period property is unique so while there is a lot of experience and expertise available on PPUK it's not really possible to be definitive about what sort of consents will be granted for your specific property. That will ultimately be for the conservation officer at your council to decide.

Having said that, I have obtained LBC to remove internal walls with no problem so it's certainly possible but it's all a matter of context. You're correct that internal alterations like this require LBC but not PP (though if there are structural considerations then building control may need to be involved). In my case, one was a plain brick wall and one was a stud wall not original to the property, neither of particularly historic importance and small enough not to significantly alter the character of the property.

In your case, I'm not entirely clear what you're trying to remove (photos are always welcomed!). You say you wish to remove lath and plaster from between the timbers, but you are not going to touch the timbers at all. Does this mean they are widely spaced enough that you can then access the space in the 1970s extension? If so, this would seem to have no structural implications and it will depend on the importance of the lath and plaster infills. It's hard to say what view your CO will take, but I'm sure there will be many examples where LBC has been granted for more drastic alterations, so I'd think you have a good chance. Do you know when the house was listed? I'm just wondering if it was before or after the 1970s extension was built.

As for your other questions about how do COs know about changes, I'd say it's all a bit random really. Firstly, as I understand things, many properties were listed purely on the basis of external viewing, so that would seem to preclude any 'official' knowledge of interior layouts. In your case, of course, the fact that you wish to remove what was clearly once an exterior wall could easily be deduced on internal inspection, but that would not always be the case. Do you have a copy of the listing description for your property? That would be a starting point when looking for any unauthorised alterations. The fact that there have been LBCs issued for previous works is a good sign that previous owners have taken their responsibilities seriously, though you're right to question how you can be totally sure. One method is to obtain some form of indemnity from the previous owner during the conveyance, though as I understand things, that does not remove your liability as the current owner to correct any unauthorised alterations (should it be required) but it does mean you could pursue the previous owner for the costs. In practice, I'd guess that any enforcement action would involve such a substantial alteration that it would be fairly obvious to all concerned. But again, each situation is unique.

I'm not aware that COs make regular inspection visits. My guess is that they are too busy dealing with actual applications and works to have any time to cruise around inspecting their patch. However, I'm sure they would respond to reports of suspected unauthorised works with a site visit - and rightly so.

All of which is probably not specifically helpful because it's only your CO who can give you a definite yes/no answer. I've successfully made three LBC applications and for each one I've discussed things in detail with our CO before making the formal application, by which time it was all effectively agreed and the application was a formality. But this approach depends on your CO being willing to visit the property and discuss your plans. I've been very fortunate in this regard and can only suggest that you contact your CO and request a meeting to discuss what you're trying to achieve.

Good luck and let us know how things progress.

 

[Jezzaaa]

Dear Flyfisher...thanks so much for the welcome and very useful post

Fully understand and accept the case-by-case basis, but you do give me hope that a small change might be feasible.

I don't think there would be any structural considerations involved. The wall concerned has one timber joist running across the room at ceiling level, plus two corner joists running at a high level from the main ceiling joist near the walls to the vertical wall joists. That description may not help you visualise it! Suffice to say that there's no timber at floor level or across the middle of the wall, and there's already a doorway between the two areas in that wall. Once the wall is removed, the only slight restriction to movement between rooms would be at head height and only if you were walking along the adjacent walls. So no timbers needing removal. I'll try and get some photos posted so you can see what I mean.

In terms of precedent, the ground floor extension already has had the original wall directly beneath removed, as it makes the kitchen extend from the original building through into the extension.

The house was listed in the 1950s, so before the extension was added. The listing only describes the external appearance, although the estate agents particulars included a floor plan of how it is now...so with not much research, they would be able to check I guess. I wouldn't do anything untoward in any case...the house is lovely as it is...it would just be a bit more convenient with the proposed alterations.

Thanks again

 

[88v8]

Hello and welcome.

As FF has so clearly expressed, as the custodian of a listed building, unless you plan to do nothing at all it is advisable to make contact with your CO.

Whether the CO has even been in the house, some have and some haven't. Given the past LBCs, the betting would be that they have.

Regarding the specifics of your thoughts, not quite clear whether you own the house or are thinking of buying it?
If you've just moved in, my advice would be to settle in there for a while before you decide that you must change this n that. When we moved to our house, which is of similar age, we had thoughts of changing a few inconvenient things that we now find we can live with, as have past owners.

Now, if you were thinking of biffing holes in the 1970s extension, that's one thing - although it would still require LBC - but when it comes to destroying the 350 year old fabric of the original building because it might be more convenient, that's something I would go a long way to avoid.

The things is, with a historic building, you can only destroy originality once.

Ivor

 

[Jezzaaa]

Hi Ivor - thanks very much for the feedback. We're actually going through the conveyancing as we speak...

I agree with you re originality...let's see what the CO says. I will certainly be inviting him/her to visit the property once we've completed and have a discussion.

Thanks all,

J.