LBC for knocking down internal wall?

[SimondH]

Hi,
We are looking at making an offer for a house which is grade II listed, built around 1800. It is perfect for us in all but one regard, which is that the kitchen is too small. However, the kitchen has a cloakroom/toilet next to it, which if taken out and the intervening wall knocked down would solve the problem. It would not in my personal opinion harm the character of the property in any way to do this, and in fact the original toilet was in the shed outside the back door (which is still there). But I'm no expert. On first inspection the wall appears to be a stud wall, presumably put up in recent decades, but it is possible that there is an older wall underneath and the plasterboard wall put up around it.
How difficult does getting permission for something of this ilk tend to be? Someone suggested I should look at the original house floorplan, but Ive no idea where ot find this. And do I need building regulations consent as well as listed buildings consent?

Many thanks for any help you can give

 

[Stephen]

If removing the wall is essential to your decision to purchase why not ask the Conservation Officer to comment, or better still to pop round and discuss with you.

If you can get hold of old plans that show a previous layout and demonstrate that the wall is relatively recent this will help you argue the case. Have you looked at the planning history and seen whether there are past applications that may include plans that help you?

The works you mention would usually need Listed Building Consent, but if the wall is modern and not part of the historic fabric it seems likely that the LBC process would be more of a formality. This statement is not intended to diminish the importance of getting consent, but there are sometimes works that are straightforward and not a problem and yet need consent.

There is the possibility that the insertion of the wall was unauthorised in which case its removal may well be welcomed.

Of course there is the possibility that the present surfaces conceal a much older wall in which case you may not be able to remove it. This brings us back to the first point. How important to you is the removal of the wall? If it is essential this is a matter to be resolved before you purchase, otherwise leave it until you have moved in and then deal with it.

Stephen

 

[Flyfisher]

Welcome to the forum.

As you probably know, the responsible CO is the only person who can give you a definitive answer because listed properties and proposed works are all unique. But, with that disclaimer out of the way, I'd be very surprised if you could not get LBC for the works you describe.

We were granted LBC for remodelling the internals of our house that involved the removal of some stud and brick walls and the installation of new stud walls. The key point is not to substantially alter the character of the property or destroy any significant original material. In our case, the stud walls were plasterboard and the brick wall was cement and hard brick, so no great loss.

It's a difficult balancing act but COs (well, in my experience of one!) understand that houses have to sensibly support modern living. An empty house is a deteriorating house but an occupied and loved house will be well cared for, which is what listing is all about. Be sensitive to the house and you should have few problems with LBC.

I'm not sure about the exact position with building regs, but I'd guess they are unnecessary for the removal of non-load-bearing stud walls. I did all our internal works without BC being involved, but if you're particularly concerned then your local planning department should be able to advise and confirm.

Personally, I wouldn't bother worrying about researching historical floorplans (not for LBC anyway), but I would (I did!) make contact with the responsible CO as soon as possible and discuss your plans for the property. They should be able to tell you if your plans are acceptable or not, though it is only the actual LBC that's binding of course.

It would be helpful to include your approximate location in your user profile as it may help people give more localised advice.

Good luck with the purchase and do stick around to ask all the other questions that we've all asked ourselves at sometime or other.

 

[biffvernon]

I keep hearing anecdotal stories of the difficulty of getting a CO to chat, let alone come out. Some seem to be taking the view that you have to put in an application before they will stir into life. A feature of 'the cuts' and we may expect worse service in future of this sort? Any one else found this?

 

[Penners]

If you have trouble getting the CO to agree to a site visit, you might have some success in grabbing ten minutes of his/her time at the local planning office (by prior appointment, of course).

Pay particular attention to Stephen's points - he's a professional in such matters. And Flyfisher has plenty of personal experience of the kind of thing you're asking about.

But do remember that, old or new, the wall cannot be demolished without LBC, or at the very least an informal go-ahead from the CO (which, in order to protect yourself, you should get confirmed by letter). In case you weren't aware of this, when a building is listed, the whole structure and its curtilage are listed - not just the old bits.

 

[Flyfisher]

I keep hearing anecdotal stories of the difficulty of getting a CO to chat, let alone come out. Some seem to be taking the view that you have to put in an application before they will stir into life. A feature of 'the cuts' and we may expect worse service in future of this sort? Any one else found this?

An interesting point Biff. Coincidentally our CO visited us earlier this week to discuss a few changes we've been thinking about and was fantastically helpful - in one case suggesting a radically different approach that was genuinely one of those "why didn't I think of that" moments. However, over tea and biscuits, the discussion was along the lines you describe in terms of organisational changes and internal conflicts.

I've gone through two LBC applications and both were granted without problem. This is, I believe, almost entirely due to the fact that all the proposed changes were thoroughly discussed, on-site, with the CO before submission. I have never had a problem with contacting our CO or, when appropriate, arranging a site-visit. Of course, I can only relate my limited experience of one property and two applications, but I really cannot fault the support and advice I've received from our CO. In fact, I can honestly say that I've been converted from a first-time listed property owner in some trepidation of having to deal with loads of LBC red tape into one living in trepidation of our CO moving on to somewhere else!

 

[Gareth Hughes]

I keep hearing anecdotal stories of the difficulty of getting a CO to chat, let alone come out. Some seem to be taking the view that you have to put in an application before they will stir into life. A feature of 'the cuts' and we may expect worse service in future of this sort? Any one else found this?

An interesting point Biff. Coincidentally our CO visited us earlier this week to discuss a few changes we've been thinking about and was fantastically helpful - in one case suggesting a radically different approach that was genuinely one of those "why didn't I think of that" moments. However, over tea and biscuits, the discussion was along the lines you describe in terms of organisational changes and internal conflicts.

I've gone through two LBC applications and both were granted without problem. This is, I believe, almost entirely due to the fact that all the proposed changes were thoroughly discussed, on-site, with the CO before submission. I have never had a problem with contacting our CO or, when appropriate, arranging a site-visit. Of course, I can only relate my limited experience of one property and two applications, but I really cannot fault the support and advice I've received from our CO. In fact, I can honestly say that I've been converted from a first-time listed property owner in some trepidation of having to deal with loads of LBC red tape into one living in trepidation of our CO moving on to somewhere else!

I almost always* love going out on site and talking things through beforehand. It takes up perhaps a third to a half of my time, and saves time when (and if) an application comes in.

However, it's a luxury to be spending half my time (and presumably absorbing half my salary) doing that, and getting paid a modest mileage allowance for doing so. I could just do the half of my job that consists of commenting on applications, which don't always even need a site visit.

Although I always joke to the punters I see on site that, if they haven't used any other service from the council, at least they've had an hour of my time, there's no requirement in law to provide that service, or to provide it for free. Some neighbouring authorities already charge for pre-application discussion, which must put the average hard-pressed householder off to the extent that they steer clear of the whole thing.

Sadly those who know the price of everything and the value of nothing cannot always see that the supposely populist motive of reducing what a vociferous minority of ratepayers will always see as an intolerable financial burden may involve wrecking everything for the sake of ideology, and short-term voter success.

*one does encounter the occasional lunatic, of course

 

[LadyArowana]

the wall cannot be demolished without LBC

I hate to be pedantic but surely you mean "should not" be demolished without LBC? I believe there are ample examples demonstrating that the absence of LBC confers no additional structural strength, although it may result in penalties after the fact.

 

[Penners]

I hate to be pedantic but surely you mean "should not" be demolished without LBC?

Of course I did, Milady. It was a test - I wondered whether anyone would spot my deliberate error.

Well done.

 

[LadyArowana]

I hate to be pedantic but surely you mean "should not" be demolished without LBC?

Of course I did, Milady. It was a test - I wondered whether anyone would spot my deliberate error.

Well done.

I know you like to set these little tests for us all to take your mind off the pain in your back, even though you never mention it of course.

 

[Penners]

Ssssh - others might find out about my ceaseless pain and feel constrained to sympathise.

I'd be so embarrassed