£15,000 for hallway decorating?

[JoceAndChris]

A lot isn't it!! The quote is to replaster everything and repaint in two tones of FnB having installed a dado rail. There's masses of stripping to do, removing layer upon layer of paint and wallpaper, and also 47 fiddly stair rails and a bannister. And also 8 doors which will be sanded and filled and have an artist paint the letters on them. It's a 6 storey building with high ceilings and landings at every level.

Not here but London, Chris and I voluntarily manage the 23/25 Committee - this quote is just for 25. So it would be £30,000 to get both sides done. Interested to get any feedback on this price.

I think if I were stripping and painting it alone it would take me 2 months. And that doesn't include the replastering, which I can't do. It's kind of tempting for me to volunteer to do it for, say, £200 per day which over 2 months would be 8k, I could do with that money, and I'm a good painter these days though I do say so myself. But it would be hard fiddly ladder work, and in the dark a lot of the time.

 

[jocelyn plummer]

That is sit down and have a large G & T time--what a price!! Have you looked for other quotes?

 

[LadyArowana]

I am going to apologise in advance for heretical comments, but are you sure that this is the most economic solution to the redecoration of common areas problem? I'm sure it would look really lovely and if it was a single family home then doing "the right thing" and making it beautiful as well would be optimal. However with a multiple owner situation you may well find that most people don't want to do anything more than the cheapest, and if you present a quote of this size for all this work a consensus may not be possible and you end up that nothing at all gets done!

Our board ( also volunteers but with a larger "constituency" approx 60 apartments over 2 mansion blocks ) had the most awful time getting approvals for the common parts redecoration. Depending on the constitution of the freehold Co a small number of dissenters can derail a project. It might be worth getting a Plan B quote which is for a lower specification job ( maybe no dado rail, new layer of paper, no handpainting of letters ), if only to use as an argument that the difference per apartment will be small ( because some costs like scaffold etc are fixed ) whilst the visual difference is large.

 

[plasticpigeon]

I don't think you should take the job on yourself.

 

[MatthewC]

A lot isn't it!! The quote is to replaster everything and repaint in two tones of FnB having installed a dado rail.

I'm guessing that's a typo for "two TONNES of FnB"?

 

[Owain]

So for 8 flats it's coming in at just under £2k per flat.

Getting a single house hall and stairs decorated, to that high a spec and with those difficulties, would probably be £2k or more, so actually it's quite reasonable. And a well maintained common parts can add £10k or more to the value of each flat.

However I also question whether such a high spec is necessary or desirable. Wear and tear are likely to be higher, finishes get chipped as people move furniture etc up the stairs. How consistent are F&B with paint colours over time?

Especially for glosswork have you taken advice about the spread of flame for surface finishes requirements on a common stair?

PS you don't want an artist to paint lettering - you need a sign writer. Although any decent decorator should be able to paint door numbers.

 

[Owain]

It's kind of tempting for me to volunteer to do it for, say, £200 per day which over 2 months would be 8k, I could do with that money,

But you'd have to allow for insurance in case you drop paint or a professional footballer trips over your ladder and suffers a brain injury causing paralysis and requiring life long care, and declare the income for Tax and NI purposes.

 

[CliffordPope]

I'd be tempted to go in the opposite direction and give it a deliberately decayed and distressed look at zero cost.
Perhaps hire a sandblaster for an hour to have a go at the woodwork.

Then hang as many of the largest cheapest paintings you can buy, and spend £2000 on a chandelier.

 

[JoceAndChris]

I like your style Clifford Pope! Very similar to bits of BC.

Thanks for the feedback and cheeriness, it's good to laugh over this as it's been causing me a lot of stress in the last week.

Actually some of the other residents have refused to pay £15,000, or even £8,000. They want it bodged once again as it has been for the last 80 yrs.

I get very depressed as these are stunning Victorian buildings in a Conservation Area that we just aren't looking after properly. I try to persuade but the general consensus is that the low service charge (just £50 per month per flat) is very welcome and nobody wants to pay more. In the meantime, I know the types of things that can go wrong with a period property and how much money it can cost to put them right. We absolutely must increase the service charge I think and have a huge pot of cash instead of a mediocre one.

Especially for glosswork have you taken advice about the spread of flame for surface finishes requirements on a common stair?

Is this a point against using gloss paint? Good if so; I really can't stand it.

All in all I feel tempted in a couple of years to swap our rental flat in London for a rental house in Peterborough that I could have full control over. This one is very appealing and looks a lot more fun that all the pain of the London one.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-42814766.html?premiumA=true

 

[plasticpigeon]

All in all I feel tempted in a couple of years to swap our rental flat in London for a rental house in Peterborough that I could have full control over. This one is very appealing and looks a lot more fun that all the pain of the London one.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-42814766.html?premiumA=true

That's nowhere near the required standard for a rental. Rental customers are getting very choosy these days! :wink:

 

[MatthewC]

I try to persuade but the general consensus is that the low service charge (just £50 per month per flat) is very welcome and nobody wants to pay more. In the meantime, I know the types of things that can go wrong with a period property and how much money it can cost to put them right. We absolutely must increase the service charge I think and have a huge pot of cash instead of a mediocre one.

Changing the service charge can be contentious, and is often impossible. Ten years ago we almost bought a 3 bed flat in a block in SE16 but then found out that the service charge was astronomical for the 3 bed flats and virtually nothing for the smaller ones. The communal areas and the outside of the building were in poor condition because - guess why? - they couldn't agree on how to pay for the work. The estate agent said "buy it and then sort it out". I said "no thanks" and when I found out this had been a bone of contention for years, I pulled out.

Personally, Joce, if I could afford to own a rental property, I'd have something nearby, freehold and more modern (i.e. at least post war and up to 1970s as they are probably better value than recent ones) as I would expect that to overall cost less and provide more profit (with less hassle).

(edited - "if I could afford...")

 

[LadyArowana]

All in all I feel tempted in a couple of years to swap our rental flat in London for a rental house in Peterborough that I could have full control over. This one is very appealing and looks a lot more fun that all the pain of the London one.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-42814766.html?premiumA=true

Have just now had a chance to follow the link. My advice, don't do it, don't even contemplate it. I can see why you like it, it's beautiful, and if you were looking for somewhere for yourself then I would say "go for it", as a rental no. Getting insurance on thatch is difficult and expensive ( as we have see from various posters here ) getting insurance on a rented out thatched property will be even more so. Our ins agent found it quite challenging to get Landlords Coverage on our house because of it's age ( 1767 ) even though it's just a very normal Georgian stone built property with slate roof, no fireplaces in use. Whilst it's true that almost anything can get covered by an underwriter somewhere, the premiums may well be punative.

For rental purposes do not buy with your heart, buy with your head. The only reason that we rent ours is because when we went shopping during the market downturn there was something we liked for ourselves, but we can't live there at the moment. So it's more an excercise in warehousing than a business model. I was very tempted by a Georgian townhouse that had been converted to 1 and 2 bed flats, and income wise that would have been a better option. However that had issues as regards turning it back into a single family unit at some point in the future, a great deal of things subject to LBC such as taking out all the extra kitchens etc and anyway it wasn't in quite such a nice spot.

 

[Moo]

Take heed of Milady's wise words, Joce. You know it makes sense.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Yes I know it makes sense...sigh. You are all right.

 

[Penners]

Although I'm just about the least qualified person to give advice about buying or managing a rental property, I can see the sense of the excellent advice above.

As regards your original question, I do find myself asking why you're going to so much expense and trouble to stamp your own style and standard of décor on your London rental property. I'm not advocating a "cheap coat of looking-at", but it must surely be possible to tidy up the public areas of the building without quite so much expensive input. Would Letraset door numbers not do? Do you really need a dado rail? Is a full re-plaster essential? Would a rub-down and repaint not be sufficient to create sufficient tidiness and freshness to make the tenants happy?

I know how much you love period property, but if you're in the rental business as a commercial proposition, then surely you must cut your coat... etc.

Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery

.

By the way, taking up Owain's point about fire regulations, if you are faced with this problem, you might want to consider intumescent paint:

http://intumescent-paints.co.uk/

 

[JoceAndChris]

I know you're right Mr P and the other residents are happy with a quick bodge job which is what it's always had - the result being that there are many layers of Victorian and Edwardian paper pulled away from the wall followed by another 100 years of quick paint jobs. It's very lumpy bumpy and bubbling indeed and in places there are huge holes, some up to a metre and back to the lath from leaks. I'm pretty sure that if the paint and paper were steamed off a whole can of worms would be revealed and a massive making good job would begin so I can understand the desire to keep going over and over the same surface.

I feel wretched that the hall and stairs aren't being done justice to - the two properties are worth around 4 million and a lot of the people living in them are on 6 figure salaries and I just don't think there's any excuse. The halls have encaustic tiles covered by worn greying carpet, stained glass down the sides of the door covered by panels of ply, and lovely Victorian front doors so glooped with paint the mouldings have become obscure, and fitted with upside-down stainless steel B&Q door furniture. The stairs are properly sweeping with highly ornate spindles, all glooped with too much paint and terrible varnish on the bannister. For 11 years I have battled to put these things right even volunteering to do the restoration of things like floors and doors myself. But I have been blocked by people who are terrified of having to reach into their pockets and reluctant to see any kind of change. It eats away at me. I don't think I can share a Victorian hallway with people anymore.

It isn't like a rental where it's managed by an agent and I never see it. This is my project, my baby, and I've put years of my life, as well as about £50,000 into making our flat lovely. When it's empty it can be used as a second home as Chris works in London, so it's convenient.

But the issue of shared hallway was one of the main factors in having to stop living there.

 

[Penners]

For 11 years I have battled to put these things right even volunteering to do the restoration of things like floors and doors myself. But I have been blocked by people who are terrified of having to reach into their pockets and reluctant to see any kind of change. It eats away at me. I don't think I can share a Victorian hallway with people anymore.

Then, dear Joce, I think you're right to be considering the other option - selling up and buying elsewhere. It sounds to me as though this place is never going to make you happy, and no matter how much you're prepared to invest in it yourself, in cash and/or effort, the other people aren't going to share in, or respect, your work and expenditure. So no matter what you do, a few years down the line you could find it severely deteriorated once again.

The best thing about bashing yourself over the head is the wonderful feeling when you stop.

 

[LadyArowana]

It isn't like a rental where it's managed by an agent and I never see it.

Maybe the solution would be to get an agent. Yes they charge fees, and yes you still get annoyances, but it puts things at a distance. I know it's a terrible shame about the state of the common parts, but in many ways it would be worse to spend loads of money on doing it up and then have people drag their bikes and stuff through and trash expensive finishes. They would get glooped over again to "tidy up" and back to square one.

 

[JoceAndChris]

For 11 years I have battled to put these things right even volunteering to do the restoration of things like floors and doors myself. But I have been blocked by people who are terrified of having to reach into their pockets and reluctant to see any kind of change. It eats away at me. I don't think I can share a Victorian hallway with people anymore.

Then, dear Joce, I think you're right to be considering the other option - selling up and buying elsewhere. It sounds to me as though this place is never going to make you happy, and no matter how much you're prepared to invest in it yourself, in cash and/or effort, the other people aren't going to share in, or respect, your work and expenditure. So no matter what you do, a few years down the line you could find it severely deteriorated once again.

The best thing about bashing yourself over the head is the wonderful feeling when you stop.

All so true! How lovely it would be to have a place where I could look after all the bits both structural and decorative, and know that the roof, windows, gutters etc would be assessed by me and a tradesman I trusted.

 

[JoceAndChris]

It isn't like a rental where it's managed by an agent and I never see it.

Maybe the solution would be to get an agent. Yes they charge fees, and yes you still get annoyances, but it puts things at a distance. I know it's a terrible shame about the state of the common parts, but in many ways it would be worse to spend loads of money on doing it up and then have people drag their bikes and stuff through and trash expensive finishes. They would get glooped over again to "tidy up" and back to square one.

I just wouldn't be able to let go enough to give to an agent. Maybe if it was a place I'd never lived, but not somewhere that was my home for 10 years. It's too personal. Plus, Chris would still be the Chairman of the Management Company, that communal business isn't going to go away unless we leave.