Larder ventilation - not a convertible Eastern European Car

[AMc]

We're turning one of our former agricultural storage cupboards into a larder so as to retain it in the building and respect its former use. The future larder is 4' across, 6' deep with a 6'6" ceiling height. The external doorway is 5' high. We've made a doorway on the 'inside' off the kitchen and will be fixing the external door in permanently in place with brickwork & the statutory insulation behind that. The room won't be heated but I believe it should be ventilated to help with preservation of fruit & veg etc. ?

Do I need a single airbrick in the lower part of the brickwork and a vent in the door or should there be another in the upper part to allow more circulation?

Any tips on 'traditional' larder design also very welcome!

 

[Flyfisher]

Good ventilation, yes, but a lot depends on how 'traditionally' you'll be using it. Ours had a shielded windows to keep out the sun and help keep it cool. Fly screens on the ventilators. Hooks in the ceiling to hang meats. Hooks on walls to hang game. Tiled shelves for easy cleaning of any blood drips. Tiled floor for same reason with integral drain to flush away cleaning water.

But in these days of refrigeration such things are less important and larders may be little more than a convenient cupboard to keep tins and other groceries. Plenty of shelves and storage baskets are probably more important for fruit and veg.

 

[AMc]

Fruit and veg - no meat or game

At the moment we use a little cupboard (once the maid's staircase) next to the cooker for veg and tins but potatoes start to sprout after a week and veg rots quite fast too. I've never been sure if this is warmth of the room or the absence of ventilation.

What I want is similar conditions to the cartshed or ('coachhouse' if you're an estate agent) which can overwinter a sack of potatoes.

 

[Schoolmarm]

Don't they need to be kept in a sack of earthy/peaty type stuff? As well as cool?


Whatever you do, make sure the ventilation is slug proof.

 

[AMc]

Perhaps overwinter is the gardener's term. I mean if I stick a 10KG bag of spuds from the farm shop in my cartshed they're good from November to March. If I stick them in the cupboard we use as a larder now they sprout in a couple of weeks. I want the new larder to be cool enough and well enough ventilated to keep root veg fresh.

It will be dark. It will be unheated. One airbrick or two is really the only variable.

 

[Nemesis]

We have a large-ish walk in pantry/larder/dairy whatever. Leads off what was the scullery, north side of the house.

It has a window with three small panes of glass at the top for light, and one of those wooden sliding ventilators under, where you can open or close for less or more air. Outside it has mesh to prevent flies. Inside it has metal shutters to close.

It is slightly below ground level, only a couple of feet, I suspect to keep it cool, with flagstones, and a large raised stone slab. I think this had two functions - to allow butchery and salting of the pig (the former pigsty is attached to the house next to the privy).

Nowadays it is good for keeping things like cheese (and some fruit) cool. There is a hanging rack with board for the side of bacon, which would have kept any mice away. Mice can be a problem though, if they can get at flour they will... There is shelving all around, wood.

I tend to use it for storage of tinned food, crockery and glassware in use only occasionally, dried goods, jams, chutneys, marmalade, which I make, and beer.

There is large fridge installed which used to work, c 1950 vintage, but it gave up and we haven't had it fixed but use it to store pasta, dried fruit etc - a large and decorative mouseproof cupboard. Before that we used it to store most veg, which doesn't keep well unless in a fridge.

We couldn't get rid of it as it's too heavy to move. One day we may even get round to getting it fixed again.

I bake bread and keep the flour, bought in bulk from the mill, in tin boxes from Ikea.

Potatoes, which we grow, we keep in metal cream bins bought cheaply from Ikea, and they tend to keep well in the dark and cool , until spring in some cases, depends on the variety.


The hooks from the ceiling (as we don't eat meat they aren't much use for hanging game birds and rabbits) we use to hang shallots and onions which we grow, in string bags. They like light, spuds don't.

My advice would be to buy a small energy-efficient fridge to put in there, to keep veg in, if it's a problem. They keep OK for a few days out of the fridge in the winter, but keep far better and longer in the fridge.

If you grow carrots yes they store in dry compost, otherwise freeze 'em. We have a large freezer in the garage/gig house.

We have a small fridge in the kitchen, which does work, but I miss having the big one working to be honest, although it is useful as storage.

 

[caliwag]

If I was building one I'd build in as much dense masonry as possible...try a granite worktop company for leftovers/off-cuts.
Our kitchen has solid granite worktops (installed when we bought the place) and they are never warm to the touch. Seems to me that a space/small room shelved and lined out with such dense of-cuts would be better than a garage.

Insulated door to kitchen...top and bottom vents (grilled) and ideally facing North East. 8) literally!

 

[Flyfisher]

Granite workstops are only cold to the touch because they are a good conductor of heat and thus quickly draw heat from your finger making it feel cold even though it is actually the same temperature as everything else in the room (assuming enough time to acclimatise to the ambient temperature).

It's a perception thing, like 'wind chill'. Wind cannot make things colder than the air itself, we just sense it that way because our body temp is (usually) above the ambient temperature.

 

[caliwag]

I don't doubt what you say but a dense masonry lined and shelved space will always be cooler (no I have not built a test rig!) traditionally larders were fitted with thick slate shelves. Must be better than a vented larder with MDF shelves.

 

[Flyfisher]

Slower to react to a change in the outside temperature, yes, but not inherently cooler. During the summer months such a larder would also remain warm(er) during a sudden cold snap. Maintaining a constant temperature differential requires an energy source, like a refrigerator. It can't be achieved with passive building materials.

But I agree that almost anything is better than MDF. :wink:

 

[AMc]

Brickies are back today so I have to make my choice; it'll be a single airbrick a foot or so from finished floor level. The external 'door' will have a grill fitted and I may put a closable grill on the internal face
The internal door will be a plank door salvaged from the previous use in the house. I will be draftproofing it but I'm not sure about insulating - we'll see how it goes.

Thanks for the thoughts and if anyone has any last minute suggestions - let me know!