Joist Replacement - finding builders in SE London

[RushupEdge]

Hi all,

Haven't posted for a while but we've been renovating our Victorian terraced house in SE London (circa 1900) and have got to the point where we know we need to replace a few of the downstairs joists.

Some of them have historic beetle damage, some are rotten (and the Seat beam/header plate is physically broken/split on one side of the room) and we had an electrician that decided to run a cable vertically through another joist.

We also need to rebuild one of the pier walls which is, well, MIA.

Needless to say, whilst we've done most of the work ourselves, I think we need the expertise of someone who has done this thing plenty of times—partly to avoid me knocking the house down and partly for my sanity!

This is where you all come in... Does anyone have any recommended builders or tradesmen that work competently in period properties in the SE London/Croydon area?

I know at one point there was a directory on the main site but that has vanished, and I've found that check-a-trade is so full of cowboys or tradesmen that only work on modern builds that it's almost a full time job trying to sort through!

Any pointers or tips much appreciated.

 

[Toby Newell]

Photos please.

 

[Toby Newell]

Photos and or PM me either here or via my personal email (on website)

My good friend and collegue of over 25 years will be available from late August.

If you look at my website homepage around two thirds down you can see the large floor we did in Wimbledon, the seat beams and pier walls were crumbled to dust.

We removed everything, rebuilt the walls, redid the joist subfloor and fitted the floor. Peter and his guys did the walls and I did the rest, including the aesthetically pleasing but probably overkill amount of noggins.

Peter is based in N London, near where I used to live, he hates travelling so be very nice to him!

I can do everything bar the walls. Peter is one of the very few people I recommend, he has the same pride, ethics and works ethos as I.

 

[ThornhillMike]

Photos and or PM me either here or via my personal email (on website)

My good friend and collegue of over 25 years will be available from late August.

If you look at my website homepage around two thirds down you can see the large floor we did in Wimbledon, the seat beams and pier walls were crumbled to dust.

We removed everything, rebuilt the walls, redid the joist subfloor and fitted the floor. Peter and his guys did the walls and I did the rest, including the aesthetically pleasing but probably overkill amount of noggins.

Peter is based in N London, near where I used to live, he hates travelling so be very nice to him!

I can do everything bar the walls. Peter is one of the very few people I recommend, he has the same pride, ethics and works ethos as I.

Fair play Toby. Having followed your posts with great interest I've walked through your website for the first time. Unbelievable craftsmanship; I salute you. Whether a trip to the Isle of Man materialises in the future will depend on how Thornhill dries out after the re-roofing and we start to lift carpets etc to see what we've inherited... That said, our bannister to the finish on your site is already on my wish list!

 

[Toby Newell]

Thanks for the kind words, the beauty of high quality wood is like high quality food, you don't need to be a super experienced expert to make it look / taste good.

 

[noj]

I'm in a similar area (Bromley) and can absolutely not recommend anyone competent

 

[Toby Newell]

tbh, if I can do the joist, you can do the joist, it's just measuring, cutting, levelling and fixing, relatively easy.

It's the walls that require different skills, imho bricklaying is just like tiling or plastering ie anyone can have a go at it but the difference between an experienced operative is massive. Looks easy, actually is not, to get straight and level.

Try and get the walls done then maybe have a go yourself with the joist, mitre saws are cheap as are drill drivers, laser levels and levels, you can also buy slates or HD rubber shims these days, also plenty of options for dpm, I use bitumin primer + bitumin flashing tape.

Just use quality C24 and go pick them yourself as around 25 - 30% of joist is banana.

 

[Toby Newell]

I'm in a similar area (Bromley) and can absolutely not recommend anyone competent

Technically there are thousands of competant operatives, I think the issue is no one can be arsed because they want easier jobs, I see it all the time. These jobs require a lot of constant thought and adjustment.

I look at it like car repair, one of my best friends runs and owns a garage, he is a wizard and repairs vehicles that main dealers screw up or will not touch.

30 years ago it was common to take an alternator apart, press out and replace a bearing, these days 90% of garages would look at you like an alien. They can't be arsed, much easier to throw away and fit a new unit.

I see it all the time, no we cannot repair your floor, but we can smash it up, ply over and fit a new reclaimed floor. Operatives these days just aren't interested in effort, in general they want easy. Seems boring to me, but then a lot of my jobs are very stressfully difficult.

Personally I would get bored out of my mind if I just did easy jobs, it takes all sorts I guess.

Whilst I can fully understand no one likes a PITA, it is at least very satisfying, it would be nice if, say every operator / company agreed to take on a small percentage of difficult jobs rather than leaving them all for an incredibly small minority, we want the occasional easy job too!

 

[RushupEdge]

Sorry for the massively delayed reply, but finally got around to pulling some more boards back up and took a whole bunch of photos -

https://imgur.com/a/7vN3K8g

IMGUR ALBUM

The previous owner had built up the patio level above the air bricks, so water had been flowing in to the sub floor. We cut this back and built a bit of a French drain which seemed to massively help and dropped the humidity level in our dining room. However, I noticed when pulling the boards up that there is still damp, and it looks like it might be spreading in from the kitchen—however all of our water pipes run across the kitchen ceiling rather than below the floor.

 

[Cubist]

Sadly, the damp may have taken years to get there and, now that the source has been plugged, it could take as long to dry out. Other than making sure that the underfloor areas are well ventilated and you treat any signs of rot in the timbers the only option is to wait and see.

 

[Toby Newell]

Sorry for the massively delayed reply, but finally got around to pulling some more boards back up and took a whole bunch of photos -

https://imgur.com/a/7vN3K8g

IMGUR ALBUM

The previous owner had built up the patio level above the air bricks, so water had been flowing in to the sub floor. We cut this back and built a bit of a French drain which seemed to massively help and dropped the humidity level in our dining room. However, I noticed when pulling the boards up that there is still damp, and it looks like it might be spreading in from the kitchen—however all of our water pipes run across the kitchen ceiling rather than below the floor.

Many photos but not very elucidating. Try taking more photos of the boards and / or sanding a few around the nails so we can assess the level of iron staining.

Seat beam looks shot so the whole floor will have to come out. Hard to see much frass. Timber isn't cheap these days but would be false economy not to replace the rest of the joist if they are partially rotted.

Masonary you have to get down there and pull and poke about, if it's loose and crumbly then that will need to be replaced.

You might be able to save the boards if they are not worm eaten / rotted and friable.

Some people mention hangars, these are the people who have never done the job. I wouldn't trust a hanger in old damp masonary even after repair. Just build new walls.

Looks like a super fun job with all those pipes XD

 

[RushupEdge]

Here’s a shot of some of the boards - this is probably the worst in the room (and this is the threshold above the kitchen - the shot of the joists with the damp patches is below this area)

I think I might have sent some images across before of the rest of the boards, but I’ll have a dig around and see if I’ve still got them. Can also take some photos of the rest of the floor this evening.

 

[Cubist]

Just a few thoughts.

Noting your earlier comment regarding the routing of water service pipes 'over' the kitchen ceiling - have you checked for pin hole leaks in those pipes and perhaps near the doorway in particular? Is there any sign of damp in either the ceiling or the wall between? If there is no evidence at present it's possible an old leak, since repaired, may have originated there and contributed to the problem. Come what may its always worth checking the condition of concealed water pipes as pin-holes can arise after a surprisingly short period of time.

The foot of that door where the paint has been removed seems to show evidence of 'woodworm tracks'. These could be very old and that infestation could well be defunct but nevertheless the risk of other nearby timbers being affected both in the past and at present. You need, in my opinion, to examine all the timbers under that floor to determine the extent and severity of the damage before considering how to deal with the floorboards as you may find that its essential that supporting joists and any timbers the joist rest upon or abut need to be replaced and/or strengthened.

As an aside, I for one will not follow a 'link' to any unknown site - that's where dragons of an annoying nature can be easily found - if you've provided other pictures/information I have not seen them/it.

 

[Toby Newell]

Here’s a shot of some of the boards - this is probably the worst in the room (and this is the threshold above the kitchen - the shot of the joists with the damp patches is below this area)

I think I might have sent some images across before of the rest of the boards, but I’ll have a dig around and see if I’ve still got them. Can also take some photos of the rest of the floor this evening.

oh, ok, yea, those look gone.

 

[Toby Newell]

its always worth checking the condition of concealed water pipes as pin-holes can arise after a surprisingly short period of time.

true, if Super Mario managed somehow to get iron fillings in there (galvanic corrosion) iron on copper in water is like hot potatoes through butter.

 

[Toby Newell]

Here’s a shot of some of the boards - this is probably the worst in the room (and this is the threshold above the kitchen - the shot of the joists with the damp patches is below this area)

I think I might have sent some images across before of the rest of the boards, but I’ll have a dig around and see if I’ve still got them. Can also take some photos of the rest of the floor this evening.

also I am not as pessemistic as Cubist, removing the overburden and digging French drains is great. Heating the room and running a dehumidifier might be worth a go, it's true damp can take a while to subside but if you have found the cause then it should be possible to dry it to more reasonable levels in months rather than years.

 

[Cubist]

true, if Super Mario managed somehow to get iron fillings in there (galvanic corrosion) iron on copper in water is like hot potatoes through butter.

Sadly galvanic corrosion is not the only possible cause of pin-hole leaks, there are numerous others, and not all associated with some additional element borne in the water. Don't be lulled into a false sense of security where concealed service pipes are concerned - they can be attacked and damaged both internally and externally.

 

[RushupEdge]

also I am not as pessemistic as Cubist, removing the overburden and digging French drains is great. Heating the room and running a dehumidifier might be worth a go, it's true damp can take a while to subside but if you have found the cause then it should be possible to dry it to more reasonable levels in months rather than years.

Toby, I've dropped you an email.

In terms of other images, as promised here are two pics - not the best but hopefully gives a bit of a better idea of the state of some of the other boards. Fully expecting to have to replace the majority of these unfortunately. Most of the cuts are from previous works (except the nice staggered ones which are mine, ha)

 

[Toby Newell]

Email answered.

Sadly I think you are correct. Hard to see exactly as has a layer of dirty wax over the top. A lot of damage / cuts. Also I see iron staining and open worm galleries, taking into account the rot underneath and damp issues it is possible this floor is kaput.

I mean, I can save it, obviously anyone could but no one else is mad enough, you simply fit 18mm ply underneath, glue and screw the old boards down, sand and use tens of kilos of filler and resin to stabilise it. This is worth it for 500 yr old floors because they are to all intents and purposes priceless.

I guess it depends on how pretty your boards are, they do seem quite fine grained.

It's so hard to quantify, I guess really nice reclaimed pine is going to be £150+ sqm inc wastage (£200 sqm+ for wide board) so I am not sure there would be that much in it.

Obviously boards that crumble upon lifting are crumbled and the cuts are cuts however well filled. I guess the advantage is, you are retaining the original boards, this disadvantage is, it will not look so 'neat'.

To conclude, without lifting and fitting ply it's probably not worth saving. I mean save any decent boards for repairs to other areas but once you get past 25 - 30% repairs, it gets a bit silly. (by 'repairs' I mean replacement, on these floors often every single board requires refixing / levelling / cleaning / glueing, so actual repairs could be said to be closer to 100%. Semantics)