Jointing clay pavers with earth?

[Zebra]

I'm making a patio and path from clay pavers. I made them from some pamments that someone gave me - not old ones but new ones, which were 300 x 300mm, and 30mm thick. I cut them into 100 x 200mm pieces, and am laying them herringbone style on compacted sub-base and sharp sand.
I reckon there is a bit too much movement to dry joint them with kiln dried sand like you would with block pavers. I could try it, but they don't interlock, so the sand might just work its way underneath them and push them up.
The joints are too small to point with lime mortar, although I will persevere and do the edges this way.
I thought of dry jointing them with a NHL / sand mix and then letting the rain set it, but I think the lime would stain the faces.
What I do have a lot of is dry sieved soil, because I have sieved all the soil in the raised beds, and it has been dry. Is it a crazy idea that I could dry joint them with earth? Would it turn to an almighty mush in the winter?
What else?........ Perhaps I should just risk it with the dry jointing. Any other ideas?

 

[Flyfisher]

Have you properly compacted the sub base and the bedding sand and the pavers/pamments? I'm wondering why the pavers/pamments are moving. After laying my clay pavers they didn't move, even before adding the kiln-dried sand.

Also, if you're worried about sand migrating underneath the pavers/pamments, why do you think sieved earth wouldn't? Earth might appear to fill the gaps but might just fill the top of the gaps because it wouldn't migrate all the way into the gaps, reducing the overall 'locking' and load-spreading of the paving. This might not matter if it's only going to have foot traffic but probably would with vehicle traffic.

I suspect the same thing would happen with a dry lime mix; it wouldn't fully fill the gaps, only the top of the gaps. I say this because I laid our pavers during the winter months and the bricks were damp. When brushing the kiln-dried sand over the pavers the sand quickly absorbed moisture and become too 'sticky' to totally fill the gaps. It looked very good but when it rained, the sand was washed further down into the gaps, necessitating another brushing with dry sand. You may not have this issue at this time of year but it's something to be aware of.

As for staining, a truly dry mix on truly dry pavers/pamments should not stain but I'd be surprised if there really was no dampness. However, it should be possible to remove any staining with brick cleaner - though I'd suggest a test with some offcuts if you do decide to try the dry mix approach. Personally, I wouldn't because if the mix only fills the top of the gaps, as I believe it would, then the first rain (or overnight dew?) would initiate the set and it would then be impossible to further fill the gaps and, as I understand things, filling the gaps between the pavers is key to the overall strength and stability of the finished paving. It would also make it far more difficult to remove/replace a paver in future, should the need arise.

 

[Me!]

I can't comment on the idea of using earth, but I have tried using a dry NHL 3.5 and sand mix before and unfortunately it didn't work at all -
http://periodproperty.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14097&p=193415&hilit=patio#p193415

 

[plasticpigeon]

I think earth might just encoyrage weeds to grow in the joints. I would try the silver sand. Are the pavers edge to edge?

 

[88v8]

Yes, soil = weeds.
Drypack lime was used by the expensive bodgers who laid the quarry tile floor in our dining room. It left a lot of dropouts and eventually I had to redo most of it with lime/silver sand and, yes, FF, many of the tiles have loosened.

Perhaps you could leave slightly bigger gaps?

Ivor

 

[Zebra]

Thanks folks. I shall just use block paving sand then. I'll post pics when I'm done.
I've compacted the Type 1 sub-base with a whacker, then laid the sharp sand as I go, compacting it with a bit of 4x2. But I'm having to bed the tiles in individually as some are thinner / fatter than others. I've ended up so far using a very weak NHL 3.5 mix for the dry jointing. I dunno why, I just thought it wanted a little bit of some sort of binder in it, but it probably won't set, I realise after reading the other post which Me! linked to (thanks Me! that answered my query perfectly). It is going all the way into the joints, because it is really dry. But I do fear that in a year's time half of the tiles will have cracked in half. Some have already. They're rather uneven and irregular in shape. They're not proper block pavers, they're larger pamments which I've cut up into smaller pieces. It looks fantastic, but I hardly dare put a hoof on it, which is not the point of paving really. Oh well, if they end up all cracked and wonky, it'll be "the rustic look"! I've lost nothing, as they were given to me for free.

 

[Zebra]

Well, they're laid. Mostly.

Dry jointing with a bit of lime in the sand didn't really work. The water didn't really penetrate deep enough, it's really only the top that's set, and the bit that's set is cracking and coming away. I'm just doing sand on its own now.

On the far right of the picture, abutting the driveway, I've done some standard block pavers, since this is where the motorbike will be parked.......

The far left of the picture is still not done. Laid out on one of the flowerbeds are all the old pamments and floor bricks that I've found buried around the place, and I intend to do something with them round the side there, where there will be little traffic. (I just like to make things difficult....)

 

[plasticpigeon]

Lovely herringbone pattern!

 

[Flyfisher]

Quite a transformation - looks great.

I hesitate to mention this now you've almost finished but have you seen those drain covers with an insert for pavers?

 

[Zebra]

Yes, but these pavers are not standard thickness, so I'd have to make up the extra thickness somehow, and I just decided to keep the one I had. It's got a patina now and next door's cats like to lie on it on a sunny afternoon....

 

[Flyfisher]

I bedded the drain cover pavers in cement mortar so would have been easy to accommodate different thicknesses. At least the cover is not large enough to attract big cats such as Li....... oops, better not mention them

 

[Zebra]

Must be heavy, a drain cover full of cement mortar and pavers. Even if the cat gets up. But if I thought for a minute that the metal one would attract lions, I would get rid of it straight away!

 

[Zebra]

I'm not at all sure I've done the right thing here. There's still quite a lot of movement in the pavers, the kiln dried sand is disappearing in the gaps and I'm having to put more in. There was that little bit of lime in the jointing sand initially, so when it rains at the weekend they may firm up a little, but I fear I should have bedded each one individually in lime mortar, and fear I may end up doing that after all. Worrying I'd done it all wrong kept me awake last night...

 

[plasticpigeon]

Keep putting the sand in!

 

[Zebra]

Thanks pp, for your encouragement.