Insulation board on sloping ceilings - CO approval

[sandyatpostlip]

I’m hoping to find people who’ve got Conservation Officer approval to fix insulation board (Kooltherm & the like) to sloping ceilings in a listed building. This is because I need to make a case to the local CO and it would help to cite precedents.

¨ Our Housing Association has a Grade I Jacobean manor house divided into eight “living units” and we’re trying to reduce our energy use by insulating and leak-proofing
¨ This is hard to do and we’ll never be able to do more than improve a bit
¨ The old servants’ quarters at the top of the house all have very large areas of sloping ceilings, divided by large roof beams and rafters
¨ These have an inaccessible ventilated roof space behind them and we must preserve this – but lots of our heat must be getting out this way
¨ The Severn Wye Energy Agency did a whole-house energy audit and their report recommends fixing 50mm insulation board between the beams and then skimming with plaster. Some heat will still be lost through the beams
¨ There are lots of other recommendations which we’re following up
¨ We’ve also applied to the Gloucestershire Warm & Well grant-aided insulation scheme. The surveyor for their contractors agrees with the SWEA recommendation on insulation board but says his firm hasn’t installed it in any listed buildings
¨ We’ll need the Conservation Officer’s approval because this will change the appearance of the rooms by reducing the ceiling height slightly and by replacing an old, uneven plaster surface with a smooth “modern” one

So, does anybody know of a listed building where the Conservation Officer has allowed insulation board to be installed to sloping ceilings?

Sandy

 

[Nemesis]

I'd be wary of some of these energy audits which recommend things which may not actually save much energy, and I would additionally suggest that things which will alter the character of a listed building - as this would - may not get approval.

In Edinburgh, experiments have been going on, in conjunction with the Edinburgh World Heritage Trust, regarding energy efficiency and listed buildings, but generally improvements have been low key and reversible, maintaining the character of the buildings.

http://www.changeworks.org.uk/content.php?linkid=374

http://www.changeworks.org.uk/content.php?linkid=373

It may be worth contacting Changeworks and discussing the isuues with them.

The only person who can really tell you what will and will not get approval is the CO, after inspecting the building. The experiences of others are not always relevant as buildings differ so much. As this is Grade I English Heritage will have to be consulted also. It may be that, if some means of attaching board which is reversible can be achieved, it's possible to do, but there may also be other ways in which energy efficiency can be achieved.

Personally, I'd rather add another jumper and keep my historic plaster!

 

[sandyatpostlip]

Thanks for the steer to Changeworks, Nemesis, since what we really need to know is what others have done to solve the problems. Not sure quite how much will transfer from a Georgian tenement to a Jacobean Manor, since as you say the nature of the building dictates much. And again as you say, some energy audit recommendations are suspect, though I should perhaps have said that the same proposals have come from other well-qualified advisers.

We need to go on looking for solutions since much of our expensive energy goes to heat Gloucestershire and promote climate change (and our sweater level is pretty Michelin Man already!)

So I'm hoping other forum members have tackled these issues in our kind of building, so that we're able to understand the issues and talk sensibly with the Conservation Officer.

Sandy

 

[Nemesis]

I suspect no-one here has tackled this particular issue in a Grade I lIsted building. It will very much depend, as I said, on the individual building, and LBC will have to be applied for and English Heritage will have a major say. It may consider this not a change to the detriment of the building, the significance etc, but it may think otherwise.

I would talk to the CO, seek advice, and see what is said - we can't really double guess the approach which would be taken. It may be that something reversible could be carried out, but any installation may require damage to the historic fabric which may not be too sympathetically looked at.

There may be wider consultation also, with national amenity societies, who may or may not have some objection. You could give the SPAB (free helpline) a call though, and see if there are any suggestions.

In Edinburgh, the works carried out were not ones which really affected the fabric of the buildings - although some of it was experimental, to see what savings on energy use could be made. Obviously in a WHS stuffed full of listed buildings, there was a balance to be struck.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

http://www.norfolk.gov.uk/consumption/groups/public/documents/article/ncc056672.pdf

May be of use.

If it's Grade I, you will also need to run it past English Heritage.

As a (very vague) general rule, I would suggest that historic buildings are not suitable for use as "social" housing or for similar uses such as old people's homes - because the "standards" set by the relevant regulatory bodies assume - and raise expectations of - a far higher degree of "comfort" than can often be attained without harming the building's character.

It is an unhappy irony that the rich (and conservation minded) are happy to pay to live in unimproved squalor (ie unspoiled historic buildings) which is denied to those on low incomes because the state dictates that it knows what's best for the latter.

 

[Nemesis]

EH has published interim advice also, and more is to follow (some of which is part of that doc from Norfolk).

However, I am concerned that the firm which gives grant aid has not installed anything in a listed building, and may have little idea about the requirements - both legally and in ensuring the building can 'breathe'.

It may be that a professional with conservation expertise can help. Another difficulty, which is not easy to resolve, is the one of adapting historic buildings to suit purposes for which too much adaptation spoils the building's historic interest. It may be that modern regulations insist on certain living standards (eg homes for the elderly) which are not compatible with a historic building.

 

[Nemesis]

Great minds Gareth (or fools seldom etc..) you added to your post much of what I was busy writing!

 

[Gareth Hughes]

I’m hoping to find people who’ve got Conservation Officer approval to fix insulation board (Kooltherm & the like) to sloping ceilings in a listed building. This is because I need to make a case to the local CO and it would help to cite precedents.

¨ Our Housing Association has a Grade I Jacobean manor house divided into eight “living units” and we’re trying to reduce our energy use by insulating and leak-proofing
¨ This is hard to do and we’ll never be able to do more than improve a bit
¨ The old servants’ quarters at the top of the house all have very large areas of sloping ceilings, divided by large roof beams and rafters
¨ These have an inaccessible ventilated roof space behind them and we must preserve this – but lots of our heat must be getting out this way
¨ The Severn Wye Energy Agency did a whole-house energy audit and their report recommends fixing 50mm insulation board between the beams and then skimming with plaster. Some heat will still be lost through the beams
¨ There are lots of other recommendations which we’re following up
¨ We’ve also applied to the Gloucestershire Warm & Well grant-aided insulation scheme. The surveyor for their contractors agrees with the SWEA recommendation on insulation board but says his firm hasn’t installed it in any listed buildings
¨ We’ll need the Conservation Officer’s approval because this will change the appearance of the rooms by reducing the ceiling height slightly and by replacing an old, uneven plaster surface with a smooth “modern” one

So, does anybody know of a listed building where the Conservation Officer has allowed insulation board to be installed to sloping ceilings?

Sandy

The answer to your last question is "yes", but as every listed building is different and has different sensitivities, having precedents to quote is not likely to be of much direct use and may well simply put the CO's back up.

 

[sandyatpostlip]

Thanks, Gareth - the Norfolk document does suggest that something can be done, so we'll go on looking. There's undoubtedly an emerging conflict between the need to care for historic and valuable buildings and the need to conserve energy. This conversation shows that there still isn't too much practical progress by EH & others towards finding ways to resolve the conflicting needs. We might even need some joined-up government, though that's perhaps a bit too much to ask.

We're not really 'social' housing, but a 38-yr-old co-ownership HA and an intentional cohousing community. We love the building and spend much time and money on caring for it, including learning how to lime-mortar and other esoteric games...but it's becoming unsustainable to heat to even the lowest standards of comfort. Hence this rather desperate search for answers! My understanding is that the modern living standards regulations don't (yet?) apply to historic buildings - do you know something that I don't? Very probably....

I share your concern about the firm's lack of relevant experience. Fortunately the grant giver is a separate body and I don't think we're locked into using that firm.

I also take the point about not putting the Conservation Officer's back up and that was the trigger for my first post. We must approach this in the right way, so all advice is welcome.

And great minds do indeed something or another, for we're consulting a conservation expert. But I thought the experts here would also be able to advise us, and so you have, so thanks. I'm also waiting for the new website which EH intend to launch this month to see if that will also have useful advice.

Sandy

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Thanks, Gareth - the Norfolk document does suggest that something can be done, so we'll go on looking. There's undoubtedly an emerging conflict between the need to care for historic and valuable buildings and the need to conserve energy. This conversation shows that there still isn't too much practical progress by EH & others towards finding ways to resolve the conflicting needs. We might even need some joined-up government, though that's perhaps a bit too much to ask.

Or, we may need an acceptance that some buildings just can't, reasonably and without hrming their character, be made any more energy efficient than they are, and a realisation that it's "green" enough to make use of the embodied energy of an old building by just living in it (rather than destroying it and using lots of energy making a new building, however "green" the replacement may be meant to be in its performance) and not get too worried about the ongoing carbon footprint of its use. I assume you've looked at, for example, a more environmentally friendly heating system (Ground-source heat pump, say), so that you can let a bit of that precious heat leak out of the roof without feeling quite as guilty about it?

We're not really 'social' housing, but a 38-yr-old co-ownership HA and an intentional cohousing community.

Yes, a bit of googling revealed that your "Housing Association" has different concerns to the one I once worked for...

We love the building and spend much time and money on caring for it, including learning how to lime-mortar and other esoteric games...but it's becoming unsustainable to heat to even the lowest standards of comfort. Hence this rather desperate search for answers! My understanding is that the modern living standards regulations don't (yet?) apply to historic buildings - do you know something that I don't? Very probably....

In those areas where there are regulations (other than the Building Regs), for example with care homes, or with "unfit" dwellings, or with the homes of benefit recipients, the relevant regulators may require things to be done that we as conservation officers tear our hair out at.

 

[Nemesis]

EH however has to work within the law and national planning policy. Basically, there are things which can be done, but it all depends on individual buildings and the importance, and it has to be a case by case scenario.

In general, conservation requires some adaptation to the building, and not too much adaptation of the building to suit transient ownership.

So compromises need to be made. It's the same argument made at times when people wish to remove historic single glazed timber windows and fit uPVC.

A 'whole building' approach, to try to reduce energy use within the constrictions imposed by a listed building, is possibly the way ahead.

PS lime mortar isn't esoteric, it's vital to the long term wellbeing of the building.

 

[skier-hughes]

To be honest, I can't see why you want to spend so much time preparing for an arguement that may not happen.

Why haven't you had the CO round to discuss your needs?

He/She may well have advice to give you that will save you time and money.I'd get the CO in and have a chat about energy efficiency and what would be his proposals. Then ask for further advice.

 

[Nemesis]

Here's some of EH's guidance, but again it must be stressed that all suggestions cannot be applied to all buildings, and it has to be looked at on an individual basis. The CO and EH will be able to say what is appropriate and what will probably receive LBC for individual buildings, taking into account retention of historic fabric and impact on that, and the significance of what is there.

What can be allowed in building A may well be not appropriate in building B. Many modern energy efficiency measures can be damaging also - possibly causing condensation in hidden areas for example, if the wrong methods and materials are used. 'Surveyors' without historic building expertise can cause a great deal of harm.


http://www.helm.org.uk/upload/pdf/EnergyConservation.pdf

See also the other PDFs:

http://www.helm.org.uk/server/show/nav.9255

 

[Flyfisher]

I tend to agree that contacting your CO would be the best thing to do. Whatever the eventual outcome, I don't think there will be any definitive progress without your CO being involved. So might as well start talking sooner rather than later.

 

[Nemesis]

I'll add this link here:

http://www.ewht.org.uk/GetFile.aspx?ItemId=487

http://www.ewht.org.uk/Energy-Heritage-Project.aspx

http://www.ewht.org.uk/Gilmours-Close-Project-.aspx