Inglenook SMOKE OUT !!!!!!!

[Richardwilliams]

Hello All,

I own a very dilapidated early Georgian townhouse, which I am in the process of restoring. On the G floor, the property has an Inglenook fireplace, which I have been trying to get "operational", but keep getting smoked out ! After reading numerous articles on the subject , I am now extremely confused about what I should be doing with this and how to get this Inglenook working properly.

Here is what I have done to date;

- I have got the chimney swept. sweep said all was ok, chimney was in good nick and had decent draw.
- I lit fire. Lots of smoke in the room. The smoke just sat there and didn't draw up the chimney - see photo R3 of smoke just "siting there".
- Sweep suggested heating chimney, raising fire and getting fire hot. I did this, but Lots of smoke again, no draw. Fail
- I bought a canopy off ebay and fitted into the chimney. The situation improved , but there was still lots of smoke going around the canopy, and into the room - see photo R2 of the smoke coming round the canopy. (Now - when I hooked up the canopy, I did not fit it into the register plate, there was a gap between the top of the chimney hood and the register plate (gap of about 300mm) - attached in R4. The reason for this was I did not have anything to seal it with)....Is this the problem ?

My thoughts -

a) If I connect the register plate into the top of the canopy using a fabricated aluminium duct, the chimney will be sealed against the canopy, and thus creating neg pressure in canopy and improve draw and prevent smoke going up and around the canopy, thus reduce smoke in my room. ? (?It will cost me a fair bit to get a duct fabricated , and a fair bit of my time hooking it all up, does anyone have any bright ideas of a material I could use as a temporary measure to seal between canopy and register plate to test it ? If it works, I obviously don't mind spending the time / money. )

b) OR will sealing it be a waste of time, as the 200mm duct will go into the large chimney diameter after the register plate, and hit a void / cold air and not draw, with my only option being to install a flue liner all the way up ? (which I don't really want to do)

c) What did the georgians do ? presumably they did not sit in thick black smoke..or would stoves / ranges usually be in the inglenook . ( the rest of the houses fireplaces are much smaller)

Does anyone have any practical experience of this, and can offer any words of wisdom ?

Any ideas or comments would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Richard

 

[robgil]

You need heat in the throat of the chimney, lining it might help.
A photo of the outside will help, could be another roof or a tree causing a down draught.

 

[MdB]

It looks to me that you chimney cross section appears to be too small for the size of fireplace that you have. What it the average cross sectional area? What is cross sectional area at the narrowest point?

With your canopy, what is the height of the base of the canopy above the base of the fire and what are the dimensions of the canopy opening? If you can answer all of this, I can calculate how close to the recommended values you are. Alternatively, you can calculate it yourself if you read Approved Documents Part J of the building regs.

One trick that is worth trying is to remove the plug of cold air in your chimney before lighting the fire, to do this, shove a sheet of newspaper up your chimney and then light it. This will then get the air moving in the right direction to start with.

(Your pics are too large - as you know. You have saved them with reduced quality rather than a smaller size. Next time it is the number of pixels which you want to reduce - keep the quality setting the same as the original.)

 

[Keithj]

I can't see the pictures - they're too large and too grainy - but going by the description...

You need something to start the "draw" going up the chimney, otherwise the smoke will just waft about (as indeed it is doing). Look upon it as being like getting an engine started: once it's running, all is well.

The first requirement is to seal the cowl to the chimney, so that once hot air is inside the cowl, the only way it can rise is into the chimney, up, and out at the top. Any air leaks above the cowl will stop that working.

A suitable specialist may be able to provide the necessary hardware to seal the cowl to the chimney (at a price). The next problem would be if the chimney itself is not in good condition - but that's been answered.

We have a large open fireplace in our (Tudor) lounge, with a metal cowl above it, and it doesn't smoke in the least. The cowl is quite wide, but starts a fair way above the fireplace. It's a delight on a cold winter's night.

 

[Keithj]

I just downloaded the pictures so that I can look at them.

r2 looks very similar to the layout we have in our (non-smoking) fireplace. I would suggest the cowl needs sealing to the chimney to prevent air leaking in above the cowl.

You could experiment by sealing it with paper and sellotape (but only for a minute or two of burning). Light a lump of newspaper in the grate and see if the smoke then goes up the chimney.

 

[MdB]

I would suggest the cowl needs sealing to the chimney to prevent air leaking in above the cowl.

This is very important if you haven't done this.

 

[robgil]

Right click on the photo then click ''view image''. :wink:

 

[Keithj]

Right click on the photo then click ''view image''. :wink:

Doh!

Thank you!

 

[Moo]

Where do you live, Richard?
If you could give a very rough idea there's a chance that someone on the forum lives near enough to be able to come round and give some on-the-spot advice (they're a very neighbourly bunch, once you get to know them).

 

[Richardwilliams]

Thanks for all the responses;

MDB -

I have measured everything up as follows;

The height of inglenook bressena lintel beam - 130cm
Width of inglenook opening - 175cm
Depth of inglenook - 80cm
Height to register plate (tapers up in stepped brickwork from top of lintel beam ) - 230cm
Register plate opening size - 50 x 23 cm
Chimney opening size - tapers further up from register plate about 500mm then all the way up it's uniform size of 30 x 30 cm -
- note - you can see directly up , straight into the sky if you poke your head up. Cool.

More photos attached

Now , the canopy I have is the following dims;
- 92 x 60cm at base (the back is solid, so i only has 3 sides where smoke can escape)
- tapers up to 34 x 34cm square
- height is 100cm
- there is an square 34 x 34cm to 200mm circular adapter stuck on the top.

Hope this is sufficient info to guide me further. on whether this hood is sized correctly and heigh I should position it.

I have checked out the approved doc , and my interpretation would be as follows - please correct me if I am Wrong , which by my results I think I am !

Area of opening is (of hood) ;
Length of opening is 212 cm (3sided) x height - assume 70cm = 14,840 cm2 / 15% = 2226 cm2
My chimney stack is 34x34 = 1156cm2.

So is my canopy undersized for a 34x34 chimney ?

On another note, I climbed into the chimney to have a poke around and lit some newspaper, when I was In the chimney the draw was huge, the smoke was sucked straight up ! Based on that, perhaps I need to make a straight duct going from the 34 x 34cm area of chimney, straignt down to the hood.

P.S - I live in North Kent

 

[Richardwilliams]

Bump !

 

[MdB]

Something wrong is going on with the forum at the moment. I didn't see your post Richard until you bumped it this evening....

Area of opening is (of hood) ;
Length of opening is 212 cm (3sided) x height - assume 70cm = 14,840 cm2 / 15% = 2226 cm2
My chimney stack is 34x34 = 1156cm2.

You should have put x15% rather than /15% but otherwise your maths sounds sensible to me. The final figures are correct anyway.

So is my canopy undersized for a 34x34 chimney ?

Undersized or oversized depending on how you look at it. The opening under the canopy is roughly twice the size it should be for the size of chimney (to meet the regs).

However....

- there is an square 34 x 34cm to 200mm circular adapter stuck on the top.

Cross sectional area of circular adapter is pi x (10 cm)^2 = 314 cm^2

If I am reading your post correctly, then this reducer is means that the flue cross sectional area is only 2% of the opening size under the hood rather than the required 15%. Get rid of the reducer and extend the hood straight up the chimney keeping the 34cm x 34cm square size and you should get a significant improvement. Ideally you want to lower the position of the hood as well to reduce the opening size under the hood but you may be able to get away with it where it is (though BC won't like it).

Oh and you didn't comment on the seal. I assume that hood is properly sealed to your register plate?

 

[Richardwilliams]

Thanks very much for that.

No, it was not sealed in before .... Which I now realise is obvious .. Duh !

Based on what you have said above , I'm going to get a new 34 x 34 duct made to connect and seal my hood with my actual chimney . Then hopefully I can have my roaring fire !!

I'll let you know how I get on .

P.S - might take me a few weeks to get duct made / installed etc !