Improved heating system in our listed house?

[Hatster]

Hello forum experts!

We have a Grade II listed 17th century timber framed farmhouse. At the moment it is very, very cold (partly due to the excellent ventilation...). We have an oil fired boiler, and radiators in all the rooms. We have a few spare bedrooms that we don't use day-to-day, and they are particularly cold.

I'm considering installing a more sophisticated heating system in our house, partly to try to keep the rooms that we don't use at an appropriate temperature to keep them healthy, and partly to keep the rooms that we do use at a nicer temperature. This will not actually involve any building work, but just be a case of changing the current radiator valves for radio-controlled thermostatic valves, and replacing the current controller. My dad is planning to do the work - but the valves are really expensive. Since we're a listed building, is there a way that we can get the VAT off when we buy the system?

And what temperature should we be looking to keep the house in rooms that we don't use?

Thanks!

Hatster

 

[Cloudscape]

I'm slowly trying to get my head around the same sort of problems. I have an antiquated oil boiler, a rather circuitous run of radiators (the two furthest from the boiler never work), an old solid-fuel Rayburn (warms the kitchen), an 1860s range (warms the dining room), an open fireplace (warms the 'work room') and a woodburner (warms the lounge). Little or no heat goes upstairs. I have a 'waterfall' of freezing cold air coming down the stairs and this seems to be stopping the heat from rising. We haven't used the oil boiler this winter (cost, and an experiment to see if we can get used to being cold!), and the upstairs is very chilly. Our 'built-in ventilation' is very efficient. The solid-fuel/log fires won't be starved of air, that's for sure.

I wonder what the house itself wants. Should I be aiming to try and keep the house warm? Does warm = dry, and is that what the exposed timbers would prefer? Locally, everyone has different ways of heating their homes, and some are very warm.

Is turning on the radiators for a couple of hours a day any good for the house? Do I need to open windows and let moist air out?

Sorry to hijack your question, but many people have similar heating problems.

Regarding the use of radio-controlled devices... maybe check that radio reception is possible, before investing? We have some internal stone walls (and chimneys) that block radio reception from cordless telephones, radio-controlled toys etc.

 

[Lime]

There may be "circuitous" ways of avoiding VAT but for most DIYers it's a non-starter.

I wonder what the house itself wants

Good question.
Almost without exception, air slightly drier and warmer than outside. (emphasis on slightly)

Hot air, particularly in only part of a house, has a great capacity for moisture far greater than cold.
Temperature differences causes circulation of air of hot damp air to cooler areas.
The consequence being that in cold areas of the house humidity is high and condensation, with all that brings, is almost certain.

Circuitous piping with poor heating on radiators is often the result of piecemeal addition, often by people who don't understand plumbing, and usually consists of either poor pipework or in need of "balancing" sometimes both.

Balancing if done correctly makes all radiators fill and heat up at the same time.
The general expectation is that the radiators nearest the boiler are restricted the most and the ones further away restricted the least.
However the size of radiator does make a difference as does preference as to which should be hotter than another.
If the plumbing is not good you could be wasting your time.

 

[Lime]

Just an addition to problem pipework.

One key difference in house plumbing is the way radiators are supplied their heat.
Pipework can be either parallel, so that all radiators have a direct connection to the flow and return, or in series.
The modern method is parallel.
However in many older heating systems the radiators were plumbed in series so that the pipework consisted of a large ring running around the house with radiators attached to it.
Mixing the two is asking for problems.

 

[Hatster]

There may be "circuitous" ways of avoiding VAT but for most DIYers it's a non-starter.

Drat :evil: Oh well. Worth a try.

I wonder what the house itself wants

Your house sounds just like ours in terms of the cold - we too have the waterfall of freezing air coming down the stairs into the sitting room, but luckily there's a door that we can shut. We're currently heating all the rooms for 3 hours a day, with the unused rooms on a low setting. (We have the open fire and stove to top up the heating in the rooms we use.) This is just to try to prevent damp / condensation by keeping it a little warmer than outside. We go in for opening the windows a lot, because the condensation gathers on them and we don't think this can be good.

Thanks for the warning on the radio controlled gizmos - I think it will work as the timber frame doesn't seem to block telephones and my electricity monitor gizmo, but it might not be a bad idea to get one to try it out with first, if possible.

 

[Cloudscape]

At least you know that you're not the only one constantly looking for more layers of clothing to put on. I think there's something quite nice about a cooler (not freezing cold) older house, where you can go into nice warm rooms that have a fire going. It's all part of the 'character'. :wink:

 

[MdB]

At least you know that you're not the only one constantly looking for more layers of clothing to put on. I think there's something quite nice about a cooler (not freezing cold) older house, where you can go into nice warm rooms that have a fire going. It's all part of the 'character'. :wink:

(While I can feel smug that I'm making most of the house nice and warm at a cost of 90p per day. It will be all of the house once the roof is insulated and the big holes in the ceiling are fixed. One of the advantages of living in a part old / part modern house that we have been able to insulate properly. The downside of course is that some of the character has been lost (not by us - unless you count the woodchip + hardboard).)

 

[Anita]

Technicalities aside (that's my O/H's area) - I find that heating an older, less efficient property works best with the heating set on a lower temperature, but run for a longer period of time. A quick short sharp burst of high heat doesn't seem to go anywhere! Theremostatic valves are great as the temparature in the rooms you don't use so often can be kept lower - but suffice to keep the room "aired".

 

[Pford75]

FWIW, we considered the same solution in our house.

In the end, the cost of individual radio TRV's swayed it for us.....we opted for radio thermostats/controllers on each loop (with the house divided into 6 loops). Each of the individual rads then has a TRV set according to the usage of that room.

The radio controllers are wireless and can therefore be moved into a room as required........when the heating kicks in, the TRVs on the rads then enable the room to become cozy, normal or above freezing depending on how you set it. A lot cheaper than individual radio TRVs.

 

[hdf]

We've invested in interlined curtains and blinds which have made a real difference to our draughty old 17c house. They also look lovely too.

 

[Juju]

What's the difference between 'interlined' curtains/blinds as opposed to regular lined ones? Re my other thread on our attic bedroom in our draughty C17th house - I've yet to sort out our dormer windows so any suggestions for good insulating material for blinds and curtains much appreciated... We've got secondary glazing which gets in the way a bit of fitting curtains and blinds.

 

[Moo]

Interlined curtains have a layer of thick, fluffy fabric (called 'bump') between the curtain and the lining fabric.
It not only increases the insulating properties, but makes them look v. luxurious. All really posh curtains are interlined.

 

[benmc]

We have the same issue in a drafty converted Church.

These guys are very well priced for Interlined curtains. Half the price of John Lewis

http://www.dunelm-mill.com/

Ben

 

[nickc]

I tackled the same issues in our 7 bed timber frame listed farmhouse last year. Luckily I was able to replace the old oil boiler with a super efficient gas condensing one (after much trouble getting gas supply). No listing issues as most of internal pipework remained and CO was not bothered by a bit of pipework in the barn where the boiler sits, or indded the addition of radiators and pipework on the top floor (pipes mostly run on surface so little drilling into timbers).

As to the heat distribution, I went for a separately controlled loop for each of the 3 floors, each controlled by a Honeywell radio thermostat. Each individual rad then has its own simple TRV. I can therefore heat the bedroom floor to say 20 degrees for the early morning and 17 throughout the day and downstairs to 18 in the day and 20 in the evening. Both are set to 16 at night but it rarey falls that low inside. The top floor bedrooms which are unused I set to 10C (it rarely gets down that low). Bit of condensation in top rooms as to be expected with single glazed metal frames. I then use 2 woodburning stoves to top up heat downstairs on cold days. So far, bills not too bad (approx £1,200 p.a. which for large house and water heating seems OK).

Radio thermostats have reasonable range but I needed to put them all at the same end of the house as the boiler for them to work (approx 10m from boiler).

 

[Hatster]

That's brilliant information, people - thanks so much. I'll go back and let my husband know the options and start planning how we want it to work.