Huge inglenook - stove or open fire?

[sue gazzard]

Hi, I know elements of this question have been considered elsewhere, but can someone help with these specific aspects please?

I have a huge inglenook fireplace in my early 16thc unlisted building (c.2m long/0.9m deep/1.6m to Bressamer(?) beam. During refurb last winter I had a balloon made to stop all the warmth from the heating system going straight up the chimney (and rain/snow coming down....) but with the house now properly liveable it would be nice to use the fireplace occasionally and I am looking at the possibilities of either a stove or a big firebasket.

In either case a register plate will need to be made, and with the stove this appears to me to be quite simple.....the flue from the stove goes through a hole in the plate & there's a "sweep" opening (is that true?)

With the open fire basket I am hearing/reading conflicting opinions - Mr A says reg plate with flue works Mr B says no it doesn't - you also need a canopy......

.......costs.......bearing in mind that this is an occasional use, nice to have fireplace, is the cost of a stove worth it? Or, by the time youve bought reg plate/canopy/large basket/dogs/fireguard (more?) is there little in it? Ideas on how much this should all be costing?

.......is a stove a "safer" option, eg less chance of sparks flying into the room?

.......and what about cowl on the ancient chimney pot (pots re-set/chimney re-pointed etc whilst exterior was being done)

.......and does the flue/liner need to go all the way up the chimney, or just sufficiently far to get the smoke going up?

....or should I save my money and just put the balloon back up there?

Thanks in advance for all help. :?

 

[MdB]

(very much not an expert in this)

Big opening requires a large chimney cross section otherwise the smoke enters the room rather than going up the chimney. If you fit a register plate, you reduce the chimney cross section and hence you will need a smoke hood and/or other methods to reduce the effective opening size. (My mates smoke hood left too large an opening underneath it and caused the room to fill with smoke when lit. It does need to be sized correctly)

I don't know about 16C inglenook fireplaces but my 19C inglenook would have always had a range fitted. This would have reduced the size of the opening to match the small size of the chimney. When the range was removed, a small fireplace was fitted (to match the size of the room) and the rest of the inglenook was bricked up.

My understanding with a stove is that you need a register plate plus an insulated flue liner. If it goes straight into a large chimney you don't get a good draw and condensate on the chimney walls which leads to chimney fires.

The regs on new chimneys is here: http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/wales/government/en/4000000000503.html
It is as boring as hell but gives you a feel for the issues involved and the calculation of opening size to chimney cross section.

Also, always remember that you need ventilation into the room to allow oxygen to reach the fire. Lack of ventilation can cause carbon monoxide poisoning.

 

[Lime]

Fitting anything new is going to have to comply with modern regulations.
Any new liner needs to extend the whole length of the chimney.
A stove would appear the simplest choice.
Building an open fire in an old fireplace can lead to many problems of design.

However, have you tried the chimney (without the balloon) using a simple fire basket?
Make the test with a window open in the room to provide an air intake for the fire.
Some chimneys have a wonderful draught so there is no need to worry about smoke in the room etc.
However if you have smoke problems of any sort in any part of the house (including the loft space) then it is either a liner or put the balloon back.

 

[Penners]

The following comments assume that you do not have a thatched roof.

If I had your dilemma, I would unquestionably fit a woodburning stove. With a chimney as large as yours, an open fire will generously throw some of its heat into your room, but will devote a large proportion of it to heating the sky above your house. And that's not good for the planet or for your bank balance.

As you've mentioned, you'll need to fit a register plate, and (as Lime says above) you will also have to have an insulated flue running up the full height of the chimney, with a rain guard on top of it. Don't be tempted to save money by having an uninsulated flue. Not only is this against the regulations but it's also false economy. The combustion gases will cool too quickly, condense inside the liner and probably corrode it into crumbling uselessness in a remarkably short time.

So, you'll need to spend some money at the start to buy and have fitted your stove, register plate and insulated flue. But in the long term this will save you wasted heat and a rapid flue failure. It will also give you a wonderfully enjoyable, cosy room, without the problem of flying sparks.

Make sure you use a HETAS installer, who can give you a certificate.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Welcome to the forum Blondie.

Seems pretty well unanimous - register plate and stove. I also have a large C16th inglenook and have a stove. It provides more heat for the room than an open fire, little chance of spark, and is much more controllable.

But there is something attractive about a large open fire, and so it might be a viable option for you if it is only for occasional use and not for heating the room.

 

[Flyfisher]

Good advice and comments in the previous posts.

With the open fire basket I am hearing/reading conflicting opinions - Mr A says reg plate with flue works Mr B says no it doesn't - you also need a canopy......

I agree with Mr B. Imagine there is no canopy over the open fire - do you really expect all the smoke to find its way through a 6-inch hole in a large reg plate? We have an open fire in a large fireplace with a reg plate and the canopy arrangement works perfectly to channel all the smoke into the flue/chimney.

.......costs.......bearing in mind that this is an occasional use, nice to have fireplace, is the cost of a stove worth it? Or, by the time youve bought reg plate/canopy/large basket/dogs/fireguard (more?) is there little in it? Ideas on how much this should all be costing?

Unless you're going to leave the chimney completely open, you'll need a reg-plate whatever your eventual choice of fire. Costs are difficult to compare because of the range of prices for the various options. Worth is a subjective judgement that only you can make.

.......is a stove a "safer" option, eg less chance of sparks flying into the room?

Yes. Close the doors and a stove can be safely left unattended. However, we've had open fires for years without burning various houses down, but then we've never left them unattended.

.......and what about cowl on the ancient chimney pot (pots re-set/chimney re-pointed etc whilst exterior was being done)

What sort of cowl? As long as it allows adequate airflow it should be OK. In any case, your HETAS fire installer should check this as part of the overall installation before certifying it.

.......and does the flue/liner need to go all the way up the chimney, or just sufficiently far to get the smoke going up?

Yes, all the way to the pot.

....or should I save my money and just put the balloon back up there?

Your decision I'm afraid. For my money, I'd install a stove.

 

[Anita]

After always having an open fire - and moving to a 17C farmhouse with huge inglenooks - my OH and myself are both stove converts now.

The heat you get out of a stove - and very quickly after lighting I might add is so much more efficient than an open fire - and it is so much safer too with regard to sparks. Lighting is quicker and cleaning out is required much less often, which are both bonuses as we both work full time. Also a stove does not pull in draughts like an open fire does.

We bought a very modern hwam woodburning stove that has a huge plain glass door - so the flames are still very much on view - as you'd get with an open fire, but IMHO with much more benfits It's not cast iron like traditional stoves, but made from steel and works by convection from holes in the top as well as the radiation heat coming through the glass door. It is a very simple modern tall design - but looks great in our old sandstone inglenook, probably because of it's simplicity. I have to say that it gets a lot of compliments on how it looks and performs. (and the cat loves it)..........

The key is though to get a stove that matches the heat requirements of your room.

 

[Tom]

We had a stove fitted in ours but chose not to have a register plate. Our opening is roughly the same dimensions as yours; if you like, I can get the exact dimensions tomorrow. We bought the biggest stove we could find and it still looks a tad on the small side :shock:

These pictures were taken just after fitting, showing our first little fire

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Jacqy - that's beautiful; what a room! Can you post us some more PPUK Porn? Your project seems to have come on a long way and I can't wait to see the rest!

We had a stove fitted in ours but chose not to have a register plate.

Best not tell the man from the ministry. Incidentally why no register plate? Surely it will make the stove more efficient in heating the room?

I have yet to construct/fit our register plate and was wondering what to make it out of. The original plate I removed was thin metal sheet, but no longer fits since I removed the vertically laid patio stones and restored the inglenook to its original size. I had planned to make a wooden frame and screw fire-resistant plasterboard to the underside with suitable gap around the flue, but wonder whether I should be going for metal sheet again?

Of course, the moment I put in a plate, Penners will be urging me to fill the void around the liner with insulating vermicelli or something....

 

[Flyfisher]

I didn't realise a register plate was mandatory, after all, I've seen stoves installed in rooms without a chimney at all with just the flue pipe passing through the building. So what's the difference with just having the flue pipe passing up a ''non-functioning' chimney that, in such cases, is really little more than a covered-in alcove.

I'm not suggesting a register plate is not a good idea for many other reasons (prevents loss of heat up chimney void, avoids debris falling down into fireplace - depending on the state of the chimney, etc), just curious about the regulations.

 

[MdB]

... just curious about the regulations.

I can't see anything mentioned in regs about this.

 

[Schoolmarm]

It is to stop your pet parrot flying up there and getting stuck.

 

[Flyfisher]

Perhaps I've misinterpreted FW's comment about the man from the ministry?

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Probably my mistake - I haven't read the regs either (life is too short and I'm trying to fix the Stag's petrol pump today). I was conflating Penners exhortations to fit a plate with his comment about HETAS and assumed they were linked.

Now of course we know what "assume" does don't we? Yep - that's right, it makes an ASS out of U and Me...

 

[Penners]

Now of course we know what "assume" does don't we? Yep - that's right, it makes an ASS out of U and Me...

Well may you blush. You've been on far too many management seminars, haven't you?

 

[Ushy M]

I have yet to construct/fit our register plate and was wondering what to make it out of.

Our inglenook has been "roofed in" presumably in Victorian times judging from the brick, leaving an 18" square aperture. We screwed batten to the edge of the opening and made a register plate out of what our builder calls particle board which is a material for heat/weather-resistent applications, (forming the mortar base at the edge of tiled roofs etc.) and filled the gap around the flue pipe with fire cement. This helps prevent loose soot falling - you'll probably find lots of soot in your flue!

Re. Penners' earlier comment - it is perfectly possible to have a woodburning stove in a thatched house, provided there is a proper flue liner installed, properly insulated, especially where it goes through the thatch, and the top of the stack is at least 5' from the thatch and it is properly swept and maintained. I understand from our sweep that the recent increase in fires in thatched houses with woodburning stoves was largely because people were installing them with no liner.

 

[DaveBrigg]

I have just searched online for particle board and it keeps bringing up chipboard, which I assume, being made of wood, is not what your builder is using. Is there another name for this stuff?

 

[christianb]

I have just searched online for particle board and it keeps bringing up chipboard, which I assume, being made of wood, is not what your builder is using. Is there another name for this stuff?

I'm late in on this thread, but you might be referring to 'Asbestalux' - not that it actually contains any chrysotile stuff anymore.

C.

 

[Flyfisher]

"Asbesalux" is a brave marketing decision in this day and age.
Up there with "Wing And A Prayer" airlines or this real one: http://www.penisland.net/ (don't panic - it's perfectly innocent).

 

[FamilyWiggs]

:shock: :lol: :lol: :lol:

That would never have got past Penners' eagle proof-reading eyes.