- Thread starter MikeG
- Start date
Pennyviz
Member
- Messages
- 233
- Location
- Wick, BS30
Where are you in country?
Andys
Member
- Messages
- 131
- Location
- At the seaside in Hampshire
Aren't those rather industrially-sized mortices to be so close together, could this be a wall plate from a close-studded building but reused after rotating by 90 degrees? Surely the timbers associated with those mortices would be pretty substantial?
Also has the beam been rather roughly thinned on one side, there seem to be the vestiges of some of the rectangular mortices? And surely your diamond-shaped wine-bottle holders would run along the top of a window holding some jumbo-sized mullions wouldn't they?
Has this been nicked from a much more grand building?
Also has the beam been rather roughly thinned on one side, there seem to be the vestiges of some of the rectangular mortices? And surely your diamond-shaped wine-bottle holders would run along the top of a window holding some jumbo-sized mullions wouldn't they?
Has this been nicked from a much more grand building?
Me! said:
Andys said:
Nice start, although what you are seeing as vestiges of mortices aren't in fact that. You're right about this being turned through 90 degrees from its original orientation in a grander original building*, the sizes of the (close-studded) timbers, and the mullion mortices of the original windows. There's a bit more to say though........
*There's just a hint in another timber that it may have been used in 2 previous buildings.
Andys
Member
- Messages
- 131
- Location
- At the seaside in Hampshire
So the great big mortices at one side are matched by fairly small grooves the other - like fixings for giant wattle staves maybe. Or perhaps the ground floor timbers were chunky and the upper floor ones flimsier...? The V shaped slot between the three mortices looks like a big version of the slots we have here which were intended to take the staves of wattle panels. Everything seems to be about twice the size of ours.
I don't understand the irregular notches taken out of the corner edge of the beam, diagonally fitted posts like rafters mebbe? All looks a bit insecure...
I don't understand the irregular notches taken out of the corner edge of the beam, diagonally fitted posts like rafters mebbe? All looks a bit insecure...
Cubist
Member
- Messages
- 2,284
- Location
- Shropshire/Herefordshire Border
I have absolutely no idea why, but I think perhaps one hell of a door either to keep livestock in or reavers out.
Andys said:
No, they don't line up, and some of them are above the window mullion mortises. Those small slots on what would have been the upper side are crude, and I'm certain they are to take the heal of rafters. This was therefore originally a wall plate (ie horizontal member at eaves level).
That's exactly what I presume they were.
No, this was definitely to take much more recent studs, forming a very flimsy internal wall in this cottage. I know that because I removed the wall. In other words, they are not from the original incarnation of the beam, but from its time here.
There's more, folks. Something that wasn't obvious until the beam was cleaned up (with soap and water).
livias
Member
- Messages
- 426
- Location
- North east Bedfordshire
Ooo detective time!
Smoke blackened which says pre 1550ish
I looked closely for apotropaic marks which if any I would expect to see above the mullion but cant see any. Maybe some in the last picture?
There seem to be lines/steps which go right across the beam (from top to bottom as it is now) which I don't understand
Shadows from laths and nails which went from the beam in one direction only. Up!. So I expect the timber was vertical at one time and the laths were horizontal
hmmm ...
Smoke blackened which says pre 1550ish
I looked closely for apotropaic marks which if any I would expect to see above the mullion but cant see any. Maybe some in the last picture?
There seem to be lines/steps which go right across the beam (from top to bottom as it is now) which I don't understand
Shadows from laths and nails which went from the beam in one direction only. Up!. So I expect the timber was vertical at one time and the laths were horizontal
hmmm ...
livias said:
That's what I was after. It says even more than that, though. Because it is a wall plate, it means that this comes originally from a hall house/ open Essex farmhouse. As we've seen from the size of the timbers, it was a substantial high-status building. I've got jointing evidence (scarfs) from elsewhere in the house that dates the timbers to 1250 to 1400, so they were potentially ancient timbers when they were hauled to this site in 1695 to 1710 to build a farmworker's cottage. I'd love to know what it looked like, because windows up to the wall plate of a hall house has me just a little puzzled.
I don't think so. I haven't found any anywhere in the house, and I can't see anything on this beam.
I removed those laths, so these marks were definitely from its time in this house, not from its original location:
In the same room is another timber which provides further clues. It has a coved detail worked into the lower edge. Judging by the mullion mortises, this was on the outside of the house, and the only place I can remember seeing a coved profile on the outside of a house is on the bressumer under a jetty. So I reckon our hall house had either a jettied gable or a jettied crosswing.
Given the muddy lanes and lack of nearby rivers, I think it is probably fair to assume that the original "donor" building must have been quite local, maybe within 2 or 3 miles......but the one thing I think we can say with absolute certainty is that we'll never know precisely where these timbers came from.
Given the muddy lanes and lack of nearby rivers, I think it is probably fair to assume that the original "donor" building must have been quite local, maybe within 2 or 3 miles......but the one thing I think we can say with absolute certainty is that we'll never know precisely where these timbers came from.
Pennyviz
Member
- Messages
- 233
- Location
- Wick, BS30
MikeG said:
Cecil Hewitt's classic "English Historic Carpentry " breaks down variations on joints and mouldings and gives them dates. It is THE reference for analysing timber framing.
Cruck timbers were large because of the difficulty of reducing timbers, sawing and so on (most of them were worked with side axes and adzes), whereas close-studded timber frames (east of the A1) followed pretty much all the time the rule that the more timber you saw, and the bigger that timber, the higher status the building. It was a way of showing off your wealth.
Cruck timbers were large because of the difficulty of reducing timbers, sawing and so on (most of them were worked with side axes and adzes), whereas close-studded timber frames (east of the A1) followed pretty much all the time the rule that the more timber you saw, and the bigger that timber, the higher status the building. It was a way of showing off your wealth.
livias
Member
- Messages
- 426
- Location
- North east Bedfordshire
>I'd love to know what it looked like, because windows up to the wall plate of a hall house has me just a little puzzled.
My last house (1480 yeoman farmhouse) had a gable end window which went up to a timber which ... well I'm not sure what it is called. It it is not a wall plate because it is higher up the gable wall than that, but it was of similar dimensions and had good size studs each side of the mullion window
.
My last house (1480 yeoman farmhouse) had a gable end window which went up to a timber which ... well I'm not sure what it is called. It it is not a wall plate because it is higher up the gable wall than that, but it was of similar dimensions and had good size studs each side of the mullion window
.
It's the lack of an upper floor which is the thing with a hall house. It was open from ground floor to the roof. Therefore a window up under the eaves is a puzzle. If it were a later insertion, after an upper floor was added, then there would be old slot mortises in evidence in the window opening. It could have been in a cross wing where there was an upper chamber, and the smoke just got in there through an ineffective door. Dunno. That's why old houses are such great fun.
livias
Member
- Messages
- 426
- Location
- North east Bedfordshire
The window was probably double height, like the window in the hall of this one
.
My house in Suffolk was the same
.
My house in Suffolk was the same