How to determine if work was done before a Grade II listing?

[jameswatson]

Hi all.
I have had an offer accepted on a top floor maisonette within a converted 1850s terrace in London. The property was given Grade II listing status in 1994.

The property has a concealed (from the front) V-shaped pitched roof, and at some point most of the roof has been exposed to become the new ceiling (i.e. the original flat ceiling has been removed from the topfloor). The current owner says it was like that when he bought it in 2002 but has no proof as to when it was done. The work definitely wouldn't be allowed today but I am trying to find out how I can prove or satisfy the council that it was done before 1994/make sure they dont demand i change it back?

Additionally, I will be seeking listed building consent for the bottom floor (to change the internal layout slightly), so a conservation officer will be visiting the property.

I am concerned they could ask me to reinstate the original ceiling which will be both expense and damage the value of the property (it currently has a loft-style feel to it).

Any help/advise appreciated?

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Bumping this one up.
I would ask the CO to visit before completing the purchase.

 

[MdB]

Isn't insurance the standard way to get around issues like this?

 

[Flyfisher]

In addition to the previous good replies, wouldn't the official listing document clarify the issue?

I know that such descriptions are not always very detailed but they are supposed to be the definitive document. If the suspected changes cannot be shown to have been present (or absent) at the time of listing - as defined in the listing description - then how could any remedial works be insisted upon?

 

[MdB]

In addition to the previous good replies, wouldn't the official listing document clarify the issue?

I know that such descriptions are not always very detailed but they are supposed to be the definitive document. If the suspected changes cannot be shown to have been present (or absent) at the time of listing - as defined in the listing description - then how could any remedial works be insisted upon?

Not my understanding. Many listed buildings only have a description of the outside but the entire building is listed including the internal features - even if unknown. Yes this does seem to me to be a bit crazy, but is probably due to lack of funds to record buildings properly.

 

[Flyfisher]

True, the entire building and everything in it is listed whether it is described in the listing document or not.

But, if something is not described or otherwise recorded then how can anyone determine if it has been changed or even removed entirely?

For example, if a fireplace is not included in the listing description and someone removes it without consent, how will anyone ever know if it existed at the time of listing? And if that can't be known then a CO will never be able to make a case for having it reinstated.

 

[tobydog]

True, the entire building and everything in it is listed whether it is described in the listing document or not.

But, if something is not described or otherwise recorded then how can anyone determine if it has been changed or even removed entirely?

For example, if a fireplace is not included in the listing description and someone removes it without consent, how will anyone ever know if it existed at the time of listing? And if that can't be known then a CO will never be able to make a case for having it reinstated.

I think the whole listing business (especially for Grade II) has to rely too heavily on trust and good faith to function, and that's it's Achilles heel. I found out that some friends of ours put thin double glazed panes into some of the frames of their Grade II house recently. Obviously there is no way that the official listing would have mentioned that the windows had glass before so who would ever know they had been changed post listing? What might raise a CO's concern is if something was altered or removed whereby there is no way it would have achieved a listing in that state. Again though, that's very subjective.

Isn't insurance the standard way to get around issues like this?

Yes, but only if you are unaware of any ongoing issues or concerns. I would imagine you would need to make a declaration as such so if you are a good poker player then there's nothing stopping you but technically you are on dodgy ground. It's like insuring your teenage son's car and saying that you are the main driver when your son will be driving it all day. Technically you are insured until you have a claim and it all comes out and the investigators get involved. Once you get others involved, like a CO, then clearly insurance is not really an option.

 

[Bayliss]

Ten years ago we were on the cusp of contract exchange for a listed cottage in Essex, our conveyancer had overlooked the fact that he hadn't received listed building consent for two 'eyebrow' windows inserted into the thatched roof. We asked the owners for the paperwork relating to the work, they told us the work had been done by previous owners. The Council informed us that we, as new owners, would be responsible for re-instatement back to original if they decided that is required. This was all through our solicitor. We withdrew from the purchase not wanting the risk of reinstatement cost.

 

[Roger H]

There is a very lengthy discussion on this topic by members of the IHBC Linkedin group at:
http://www.linkedin.com/groupItem?v...roup_most_popular-0-b-ttl&goback=.gmp_3297985
The removal of the ceiling, whether or not it has listed building consent, need not necessarily be beyond the pale - it depends on the 'significance' of the item whether removal or modification is acceptable or not. As above, ask the CO for a written view.

 

[MatthewC]

If normal legal sense applies to listed buildings, then the CO would have to prove the standard of the building at the time of listing - the onus of proof surely has to be on them, not the owner.

 

[Flyfisher]

Yes, that's my feeling too. They'd surely have to have some sort of documentary proof to justify any reinstatement action, which is why poorly detailed listing descriptions might be effectively useless as protection.

 

[jameswatson]

This is really helpful. Thanks so much to everyone, your input is really appreciated. It does look like from what most of you are saying that, to be on the safe side I should get some sort of written consent/approval/acknowledgement from the CO, even if in practice it would be tough for them to prove it was done post 1994.

To add a bit of context, the property is in a district of N.London where in 1994 great swathes of streets were suddenly converted to Grade II, despite most having been converted to flats/lots having poor loft conversions added.

The Listing description online is only generic about the outside of all the properties. Additionally, one of the houses next door does not have a similar roof, but I believe others on the street might do but tough to tell from looking through the windows. In the council's generic description of the area they note that "There is a variety of existing roof forms in the area, some with exposed pitched and hipped roofs, many with parapets and hidden roofs, and some with mansards and dormers." . Im not sure if the "exposed pitched" refers to my current situation...

 

[Gareth Hughes]

In the council's generic description of the area they note that "There is a variety of existing roof forms in the area, some with exposed pitched and hipped roofs, many with parapets and hidden roofs, and some with mansards and dormers." . Im not sure if the "exposed pitched" refers to my current situation...

in this case, it's saying that some of the houses have roofs that are visible from ground level outside, and some have them concealed by parapets. So not your current situation, I'm afraid.

 

[Keithj]

... and if the CO happens to have a file of photographs taken when the property was listed. That's pretty unlikely, but asking for advice would avoid any problem.

I know that our CO has a large batch of photographs of ours, because I sent them to him as we were doing the repair work. They went with a weekly telephone call on the lines of "Yes, that's fine, keep going."
A new owner (not in my lifetime!) would have no problem proving what was there and approved, and no chance of cheating.