How concerned should I be about survey results?

[victrc]

I’m a FTB in England with an offer accepted on a Grade II Victorian mid-terrace that’s also in a conservation area.

I’ve just had a L3 survey done and while I was expecting some of the issues that were raised (e.g. high damp readings), the overall opinion section states that “The property cannot be considered to be a reasonable purchase as there are a number of defects that require immediate attention, such as an assessment of the first floor [note - this is in relation to excessive movement on a heel-drop test, likely due to “the floor not being supported property or weakened by a timber defect”] which will require some expenditure at the outset. I would not expect any particular difficulty on resale in normal market conditions, provided that the necessary works are carried out to a satisfactory standard.”

However, when I spoke to him after receiving the survey, he didn’t seem too concerned and said that he’d seen worse in other properties and that it was a lovely house.

So I’m a bit unsure how to proceed - I was already nervous about buying a listed building as a first property, and I did find the survey quite worrying (not just the floor issue, there was also a small gap between fitted boards in the roof space and 6 sash windows that couldn’t be opened and would need repair or replacement, which obviously has the potential to be very expensive). I do know it’s to be expected that a lot of issues will come up on a survey for an older house! I’m just not sure whether this is actually fairly standard or whether, given that the surveyor said that it isn’t a reasonable purchase, I should be looking to withdraw the offer before even getting the necessary specialist surveys and quotes.

I know a lot of people just advise not to buy a listed building in the first place so was hoping to get some slightly more balanced views here - thanks!

 

[Cubist]

As a first time buyer it may be reasonable to assume you will need a mortgage for the property. If so, you should contact the mortgage provider as soon as possible to check that they are still willing to advance the loan on this property. The judgement expressed by the surveyor regarding the floor, if the report must be shared with the mortgage provider, may get you a flat No but they may alternatively revise their offer and include a caveat to the contract to force you to make the repairs within a given time and by withholding part of the loan amount. Better for you to be safe now than sorry later.

 

[lizziecupcakes]

FTB here just to follow on what Cubist said, your solicitor will read the survey report too and may also advise against the purchase. It does sound a bit contradictory what the surveyor said vs wrote, but perhaps they just meant it literally: they have seen worse, but they still don’t recommend the house as a purchase. It’s solely on that - the cosy of repair so from an investment and “good for your money” pov, it might be a poor purchase. Don’t let your heart rule over your head. Be careful also, if you really want it, definitely negotiate hard. Get quotes. Get the full repair amount off. The EA and seller will know that another survey report will show the same. Good luck

 

[victrc]

As a first time buyer it may be reasonable to assume you will need a mortgage for the property. If so, you should contact the mortgage provider as soon as possible to check that they are still willing to advance the loan on this property. The judgement expressed by the surveyor regarding the floor, if the report must be shared with the mortgage provider, may get you a flat No but they may alternatively revise their offer and include a caveat to the contract to force you to make the repairs within a given time and by withholding part of the loan amount. Better for you to be safe now than sorry later.

You’re right, I am buying with a mortgage. I called the solicitor after I got the report to ask whether it might cause an issue with the mortgage, but they just said that the lender had already done their own valuation before offering the mortgage so I’m not required to tell them anything at this stage. I suppose they might change their mind once they read the full report though!

Thanks so much for your help!

 

[a twig]

The lender's valuation is usually a desktop exercise, so unlikely to have been anything useful.

Personally after my third house purchase I stopped bothering with surveyors, they are so keen to avoid liability that their written reports assume worst case on everything. The final straw was the survey that said "assume ceiling is plasterboard so no issues" when it was visibly unpainted asbestos sheet, but I've had others who told me:
1) I had rising damp on the first floor
2) That my terraced house was sliding down a hill at a rate of 3cm a year independent of the houses it was attached to
3) That an ashlar faced building was a cavity wall that had collapsed
etc

A heel drop test is (unsurprisingly) dependent on the weight of the surveyor, crazy as it may seem but a heavy person jumping up and down makes flooring reverberate more than a light person doing it.

In short, if you are financially stretching yourself to buy a property, and you aren't confident/interested in fixing things yourself over an extended period of time, run away.

If you have the skills/enthusiasm/cash/time then everything is fixable, ignore the surveyor but move in with your eyes open and be prepared in three years time to be a somewhat different person who suddenly has accounts open with various Builder's Merchants and spends a lot of time on forums like this one arguing about the benefits of different lime mortars, plasters and breathable insulation products

 

[Kearn]

This is your survey. It doesn’t impact lender or solicitor.

Mortgage lenders will invariably send an idiot with a clipboard of tick box Qs round for 10minutes, who will then find ‘evidence’ of damp, rot, infestation etc — for which you must instruct the PCA to undertake a ‘specialist’ survey - the only thing that is special about them is their employees. If this happens they’ll then strong arm a hold on some of the funds until boxes have been ticked. It’s a terrible racket.

A surveyor will always write a very vague, Teflon report to avoid all liability and paint a negative picture just in case. What matters is the conversation, so ask all you need by phone for the honest answer.

The whole thing here is an exercise in liability shifting between the different entities.

You mention follow on specialist surveys, such as…?

The only survey that really is needed is a genuine heritage survey, sadly RICS have very few of these on their books and the Level 3 is not what it should be by a country mile.

That two pronged damp meter - absolute garbage, only to be used for measuring the moisture content of timber. The moment they shove it in a wall and suck their teeth, you know they are clueless. And now they are also breaking their own, ill enforced guidelines for period properties.

I’ve no idea what a heel drop test is meant to be, but if he thinks the floor moves and is either inadequately supported and/or has a timber defect, he should have identified these and shown them.

Anyhow, what are the real issues that were flagged - a small gap, some painted shut windows - these are the sorts of things in an old building you won’t lose sleep over!

Do you have some more context / images / links to the building?

Looking after an old place is a bit of a labour of love, can be frustrating, but is massively rewarding - you just need the right motivation and mindset, and usually a decent purse. You’re only putting in a shift of custodianship for the future folks, compared to any dreadful new build which won’t outlast you.

 

[Kearn]

spends a lot of time on forums like this one arguing about the benefits of different lime mortars, plasters and breathable insulation products

how could you omit paints?!!!??!

 

[a twig]

how could you omit paints?!!!??!

Frankly I'm still too locked into the wood fibre vs wood wool debate to even start arguing about paints

 

[Kearn]

Frankly I'm still too locked into the wood fibre vs wood wool debate to even start arguing about paints

How about a side of breather membranes…

 

[paulc]

how could you omit paints?!!!??!

Or the most efficient way of preparing and eating pachyderms ?

 

[lizziecupcakes]

My surveyor said they thought the roof was overloaded. We really didn’t think so and I couldn’t see the signs. She didn’t really say why either, well, it was vague. It did seem like she was just covering herself a little bit but we got a roof specialist in and they said it was not overloaded. Done. We bought the house.

I think if you really like the house, het people in and see how much it would cost or repair things (and how long). My seller knocked off the cost to fix/repair some issues in the house, so you should negotiate.

 

[victrc]

This is your survey. It doesn’t impact lender or solicitor.

Mortgage lenders will invariably send an idiot with a clipboard of tick box Qs round for 10minutes, who will then find ‘evidence’ of damp, rot, infestation etc — for which you must instruct the PCA to undertake a ‘specialist’ survey - the only thing that is special about them is their employees. If this happens they’ll then strong arm a hold on some of the funds until boxes have been ticked. It’s a terrible racket.

A surveyor will always write a very vague, Teflon report to avoid all liability and paint a negative picture just in case. What matters is the conversation, so ask all you need by phone for the honest answer.

The whole thing here is an exercise in liability shifting between the different entities.

You mention follow on specialist surveys, such as…?

The only survey that really is needed is a genuine heritage survey, sadly RICS have very few of these on their books and the Level 3 is not what it should be by a country mile.

That two pronged damp meter - absolute garbage, only to be used for measuring the moisture content of timber. The moment they shove it in a wall and suck their teeth, you know they are clueless. And now they are also breaking their own, ill enforced guidelines for period properties.

I’ve no idea what a heel drop test is meant to be, but if he thinks the floor moves and is either inadequately supported and/or has a timber defect, he should have identified these and shown them.

Anyhow, what are the real issues that were flagged - a small gap, some painted shut windows - these are the sorts of things in an old building you won’t lose sleep over!

Do you have some more context / images / links to the building?

Looking after an old place is a bit of a labour of love, can be frustrating, but is massively rewarding - you just need the right motivation and mindset, and usually a decent purse. You’re only putting in a shift of custodianship for the future folks, compared to any dreadful new build which won’t outlast you.

The report suggests getting in pretty much every specialist under the sun, but the main ones were a damp and timber expert to assess the walls (any advice on whether this is worthwhile or whether they’ll just give advice that’s not appropriate to the type of building?), a joiner or carpenter or structural engineer to inspect the floor, a roofing contractor, a stonemason for a cracked windowsill, and a glazier/sash window specialist.

He said he thought a load bearing wall had been removed from the ground floor which might contributing to the floor issue, but also couldn’t rule out wood rot or wood-boring insects. No indication of when the wall was removed, and there’s no applications for LBC or building control on the council website.

I’ve attached a picture of the property - it’s one of a row of 4 weaver’s cottages (all listed) in Macclesfield.

Totally agree that older buildings are worth the extra effort, think the negativity of the survey just caught me a bit off guard! I guess I just need to make sure I know what exactly I’m letting myself in for before committing - but this forum has already been a great resource for that

 

[eezageeza]

Totally agree with the above - surveyors will list everything they spot, as vaguely as possible, just to cover any legal liability. Read their reports with a huge pinch of salt

When we bought our house the surveyor said the roof needed replacing 'in the near future'. That was 28 years ago, and we haven't needed to do it yet!

 

[fernicarry]

The daylight between the guttering and the wall is a bit odd. Maybe its pulled away a bit? Looks like you are sharing a down pipe with next door and the alignment doesn't look brilliant so I'd made sure its all running properly as one of your first tasks.

The other thing about surveyors is that they don't go up on ladders to have a proper look at the roof or under floors etc. They'll give you chapter and verse on the bleedin' obvious but nothing on the hidden horrors (without wishing to suggest that there are any with this one...).

The windows appear to be in good decorative order and they look to be original or at least in the original style. Very nice and well worth retaining.

Shame about the surface-run cables, how do you get away with that on a listed building?

 

[Cubist]

A lot has changed in the behaviour of Mortgage Lenders in recent years and many are making stipulations not previously seen, for example; some are now refusing loans on houses with foam insulated lofts. Despite what your solicitor has said you should personally check your letter of offer from the lender as this should include any additional conditions they have insisted upon - any such may include a requirement for disclosure of pertinent information that becomes known to you before completion. Again, better to be safe now than sorry later.

That aside, lenders typically assess a properties value on the basis of what cash they might realise from an outdoor fire sale auction on a rainy day after first discounting your deposit. Make no mistake here; you are in a game of musical chairs in which the lender, your solicitor and your other advisers are already sitting down and there are no vacant seat remaining. Your surveyors assessment of the property deserves careful consideration insofar that this leaves you with only three courses of action, these being: -

• Continue the purchase to completion on the basis of the price you have agreed with the vendor.
  • While worrying that you've overpaid and in addition have some potentially large future financial exposure for repairs.
• Withdraw from the purchase and swallow the costs already incurred.
• Negotiate an agreeable discount from the vendor to cover the rectification costs for the concerns expressed by your surveyor.

As you may have gathered, many of us here hold opinions of property surveyors best, and perhaps even charitably, described as scathing. Nevertheless, his/her report represents a clear schedule of potential repair work that may be needed to put this house in order. Did he/she give any indication of the scale of these costs or were you hoping that some here may be able to help in this regard?

If the latter then can you provide more detail? So far we have a bouncy floor, some sash windows that won't open and spaces between boards in the loft. Is there anything else of significance?

 

[victrc]

A lot has changed in the behaviour of Mortgage Lenders in recent years and many are making stipulations not previously seen, for example; some are now refusing loans on houses with foam insulated lofts. Despite what your solicitor has said you should personally check your letter of offer from the lender as this should include any additional conditions they have insisted upon - any such may include a requirement for disclosure of pertinent information that becomes known to you before completion. Again, better to be safe now than sorry later.

That aside, lenders typically assess a properties value on the basis of what cash they might realise from an outdoor fire sale auction on a rainy day after first discounting your deposit. Make no mistake here; you are in a game of musical chairs in which the lender, your solicitor and your other advisers are already sitting down and there are no vacant seat remaining. Your surveyors assessment of the property deserves careful consideration insofar that this leaves you with only three courses of action, these being: -

• Continue the purchase to completion on the basis of the price you have agreed with the vendor.
  • While worrying that you've overpaid and in addition have some potentially large future financial exposure for repairs.
• Withdraw from the purchase and swallow the costs already incurred.
• Negotiate an agreeable discount from the vendor to cover the rectification costs for the concerns expressed by your surveyor.

As you may have gathered, many of us here hold opinions of property surveyors best, and perhaps even charitably, described as scathing. Nevertheless, his/her report represents a clear schedule of potential repair work that may be needed to put this house in order. Did he/she give any indication of the scale of these costs or were you hoping that some here may be able to help in this regard?

If the latter then can you provide more detail? So far we have a bouncy floor, some sash windows that won't open and spaces between boards in the loft. Is there anything else of significance?

They didn’t give any cost indications, I think they were wary as it’s listed. I plan to get some advice from a building company that has worked with heritage/listed buildings but if anyone is able to give even a ballpark figure, that would be amazing!

Those issues were the main ones that he flagged in the report and on the phone but there was also:

• a collection of other roof and chimney things, e.g. cracked and missing ridge tile mortar, slipped and damaged slates, unsealed lead flashing at the base of the chimney stack (and apparently some mortar flashing that should be replaced with lead), cracked flaunching, spalled brick
• leaking rear gutter
• more spalled brickwork on the walls and something about cement-dense pointing that needs raking out
• sulfate attack causing dampness in the chimney breast, so he suggested replastering with sulfate-resistant cement plaster

My main concern is the windows, honestly - 5 don’t open due to suspected rot or because they’ve been painted over, 1 doesn’t stay open, there’s a cracked pane, rotting timber frames, a broken stone windowsill and gaps in the cement seals. It’s hard to tell from the report what needs urgent repair (presumably the sealed windows so that I can ventilate the house) and what can be sorted out over a longer timeframe!

 

[Cubist]

Are you intending to use this data to re-negotiate the sale price or to inform your budgeting?

The priorities for the work are clearly the roof, gutters and chimney before the windows and other brickwork. These must be addressed to ensure the house is water-tight and free from leaks. Much of that work will require scaffolding and should therefore it's wise that they be tackled at the same time. A good local general builder would be able to provide a ball-park figure for all the work but others here have more recent experience than I and might be able to suggest some estimates.

The rest do not immediately threaten the house but could be more expensive to put right.

 

[victrc]

Are you intending to use this data to re-negotiate the sale price or to inform your budgeting?

The priorities for the work are clearly the roof, gutters and chimney before the windows and other brickwork. These must be addressed to ensure the house is water-tight and free from leaks. Much of that work will require scaffolding and should therefore it's wise that they be tackled at the same time. A good local general builder would be able to provide a ball-park figure for all the work but others here have more recent experience than I and might be able to suggest some estimates.

The rest do not immediately threaten the house but could be more expensive to put right.

Depends on the quotes - there’s some level of repairs I can cover through budgeting but if I’ll need to put down thousands upfront or within 6-12 months then I’d be looking to renegotiate.

Interesting about the roof, the surveyor seemed to think the repairs were needed less immediately than the windows (other than just fixing the gap) - but makes sense to prevent leaking and if I’ve got to get the scaffolding up anyway then agree it’s best to do it all at once! Thanks again for the advice

 

[fernicarry]

Rotten windows can silently let water into the fabric of the building so whilst perhaps less urgent than obvious defects in the roof they shouldn't be left forever either. No coincidence that the rotten joist ends in this place occurred underneath window openings...

All of the defects you list are common for timber windows that haven't been looked after (still think the ones in your picture look quite presentable) and can be repaired in situ. You should be able to find a local tradesperson who specialises in window repair to do the work. A few years ago I was maybe a couple of hundred per window for new wooden cills, repairs to the cases and a whole new bottom sash (pine). Undoubtedly it would be a fair bit more than that today but it shouldn't break the bank. That was keeping them single glazed, if you did want to upgrade to DG (assuming they aren't already) in a listed building then that comes with a much more significant price tag. I'd repair what you have and revisit at a later date.

A broken stone cill can be an indicator of movement. Take a close look at the top of the window frame above to see if its under any signs of duress such as might be caused by a failed lintel. The cill itself can be repaired and I think again I was a couple of hundred for a cramp repair as part of a bigger job to repoint and tart up the front elevation here. Repairing a lintel, should that be necessary, is a bigger and more intrusive job.

Bear in mind that scaffolding will need to be erected on the public pavement and that will probably be more expensive than if it was on private land. The window can be done from inside so wouldn't necessarily need scaffolding.

 

[Chillygirl]

Bought my 1750s terraced 4-bed cottage 14 months ago - had a 70 page report back from solicitor which really scared me, but i referred it to my nephew (builder) who is doing work needed for me and only person who i'd trust to do it, and he said surveyors judge everything against what modern building construction rules dictate and having started work tells me it is built far better than a lot of new houses he has worked on. Anyway - i like a challenge!