Hopefully buying this - looking for survey advice

[PeterI]

Well it looks like I'm going to buy this 1830-40 money pit before someone else splits it into flats (planning permission granted already for this), as you can see it needs a bit of care and attention. Almost certainly the windows will need the uPVC ripping out (next door has already done this recently with I think double glazed glass judging by the planning application) and we're planning to do some interior re-arranging (more below)

I found this nice photo at the city of london collage collection around the time of listing, I suspect we'll need to put these windows back in.

I'm a bit concerned about this "hard cement" (that's what a planning application describes it as) pointing here:

It seems to stick out proud from the brick work by a few milimetres (note to self use inches) and I'm wondering if the conservation officer is going to make me take it off? Anyone have any thoughts on this (and likely cost) reading around here the recommendations seem to be that taking it off may make the situation worse.

Anyway currently the building is split into a topfloor flat and the rest of the building is being let to lodgers I suspect the current owner hasn't bothered with Listed Building Consent (I could be surprised). This means we're planning to remove the kitchen on the top floor (which steals some space from the bathroom) and turn the current kitchen/living room back into a bedroom turning the space the kitchen occupied into an on-suite bathroom, at the same time getting the windows redone.

So far we've not been back for a really good poke around (too many rooms with lodgers and or their clothing in) but I've had a good look at the planning applications for the conversion into flats and there isn't any mention work on the roof or tanking the basement. Currently I'm planning on going back for a good look around just before we exchange contracts to make sure theres nothing to awful.

Sixteen years ago I nearly bought a georgian town house in hackney (now split into flats sadly) but it had a leak from the water tank and was suffering from being a repossession (with hindsight this was probably a good thing as financially it would have killed me). I got a full survey done it but was dissappointed by the number of "consult a specialist" comments. So now for the big question:

Do I just get a home buyers valuation report for the mortgage folks OR do I go for a full blown report and hope the mortgage folks don't go see it and start blocking my purchase? Currently I tempted to go for the valuation report and take a chance on the rest of it. (off to see the bank on Thursday so I need to decide quick)

Finally the roof I think looks okay but there seems to be a bit of dip forming on the left hand side and at least a couple of tiles missing.

What do the more experienced folks think? (I currently have a basement flat so these roof things are new to me) Something to panic about or something to add a "round to it" list?

Slightly surprised by how long a first post this is.

 

[MatthewC]

Welcome Peter.

This will bump your post back up as first posts always take a few days to appear.

I don't think the conservation officer could make you remove that awful pointing; but I would guess that it is not very deep and will come off quite easily!

As regards a valuation, you might be advised to get someone who is experienced in older properties as otherwise a lot of recommendations might be made (e.g. injected damp course) which could then be quite difficult to persuade your lender why you don't want to do them! If you get a specialist, I'd get a full survey personally unless you feel that your own knowledge is enough...

 

[PeterI]

Welcome Peter.
I don't think the conservation officer could make you remove that awful pointing; but I would guess that it is not very deep and will come off quite easily!
[/qoute]
I hopeful on this, next door (sold by the same agent a year or so ago) had the CO round during the sale so I'm expecting we'll be getting a visit too.

As regards a valuation, you might be advised to get someone who is experienced in older properties as otherwise a lot of recommendations might be made (e.g. injected damp course) which could then be quite difficult to persuade your lender why you don't want to do them! If you get a specialist, I'd get a full survey personally unless you feel that your own knowledge is enough...

My knowledge is whats worrying me... Now just need to find a sensible surveyour somewhere in south east london, anyone got any recommendations?

 

[88v8]

Welcome.

Oddly, enough, and I say this as a UPVC-hater, those are probably the best plastic sashes I've seen.

Yes, I'd go for a specialist survey, but for yourself, not the lender.
Choose a period-property specialist. We used this chap. It's out of his area, but you could innocently ring him and when he says no, ask him for a reccomendation.
http://www.thatsurveyor.co.uk/index.htm

Pointing, cement, as you say not good news. However, the good news is that it was done very carefully and not smeared over the face of the bricks.

Roof, also looks good. Small sag, very nice; couple of slipped tiles, routine maintenance. Although, I'd get myself up a ladder and have a look in the roof space, water penetration, rot, woodworm.

Btw, you need to specify that the surveyor must go into the attic(s) and lift any floor hatches, and climb up and look at roof & gutters, not just ponce around in a smart suit and peer at things from the ground.

Ivor

 

[AMc]

We got in touch with the mortgage company's preferred surveyors and I spoke with them to get the "most appropriate" surveyor from a neighbouring office. He understood breathability and old properties so we paid them for a full survey and they did the lenders "valuation report" at the same time. I was confident that because he was experienced he wouldn't recommend injecting a DPC etc. or give the lender the opportunity to add retentions for unnecessary work in the valuation.
The lender didn't ask for a copy of the full survey, though they were aware I'd commissioned it. I was disappointed that some things I specifically asked him to investigate weren't - doing it again I would put in writing all the specifics and I wouldn't put up with "inspection was not possible because a cardboard box obstructed access" which I've seen before. Also once you have the report, read it all, make some notes and questions and ring the surveyor to discuss them. Mine was more forthcoming in verbal recommendations than he was in the "cover your backside" boilerplate copy.

I wouldn't buy a house of that age without seriously considering a professional report, the fact that it has been rented would make me question how much maintenance had been done during the current ownership.

 

[plasticpigeon]

That looks lovely! Are the windows PVC sashes?? I'm not saying don't change them or anything but I've seen far worse!!
I would say if you are happy with the idea of spending quite a lot on the place anyway, perhaps you don't need anything other than the valuation survey. However they will probably still recommend specialists. I just bought a place and the mortgage surveyor recommended that all sorts of specialists look at the house, who then recommended all sorts of remedial action. The mortgage company held back a retainer until the recommended work was done, but because I didn't want the work done I just paid the retainer as cash which was just like putting down a bigger deposit. I was surprised I could do that but it seemed simple enough.

I'm sure a more detailed survey could be useful, but it would need to be done by someone who specialises in old buildings. I had a more detailed survey done by a local structural engineer/surveyor as I was concerned about the state of my place and was disappointed to find that the bloke just described what he could see, which is exactly what I could see, so it was a waste of money. I'm sure a survey by a good surveyor will be more than £500 though, so I would be inclined not to go down that road if I were to buy another place.

I fear removing the cement may damage the bricks especially if it is very hard and I would make fixing the roof an absolute priority. There;s me two pennies worth!!!

 

[JoceAndChris]

Lovely house there! And I applaud your intentions to turn it back into a family house.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with an expensive independent survey now - but that's only because I've read this forum for years and have experience. When you're coming from a basement flat you feel thrown into the deep end - I can imagine how you feel as we came from a 1 bed basement flat with no issues to a 4 bed detached with every issue, just about.

But our expensive survey was really just a description of what he saw - we didn't learn anything new and it's only taken living in the property over 3 years to be able to properly assess what needs doing. The whole document was couched in very careful language with lots of phrases like "as far as can be assessed" " can be problematic if unattended" "condition to be expected from its age" "tree rather close to garage, keep an eye" too vague and not anywhere as near as helpful as this forum or even just reading something like "The Old House Handbook".

Be very aware that many recommendations play on fear and have nothing to do with what the house really needs, damp injections being about as useful as sacrificing a goat ( and more damaging to old plaster).

Your house won't fall down, and its problems can be fixed at your pace.

 

[tobydog]

We paid £700 for a Building Survey by an 'experienced' old building surveyor who was even a FRICS. I expressly asked if he was experienced in timber frame. It turned out that the report we received was no better than any other Home Buyers report I've had on previous modern houses. In many respects the Home Buyers reports were far better. He simply stated the obvious and didn't even pick up on the issues I'm now facing. It is so critical that if you go down the Building Survey route that you get the right person.

In the end I was so annoyed at being 'duped' that I confronted him and got my £700 back.

 

[Nigel Watts]

This very much looks like a London house from the first or second quarter of the 19th Century (Islington and Hackney have many similar examples) but when it was built it must have been outside the area covered by London building regulations which required the party wall between attached houses to rise above the roof line. The railings on the steps and round the front area look original, or at least contain old elements, but the railings next to the pavement look like replacements.

A house like this in Islington might not be listed, especially if it is in a conservation area. Sometimes a listing would be slapped on following the submission of a planning application. This seemed to have happened to my house in the past as only of few of the otherwise very similar houses on our street have been listed. Whether or not the house is listed, if it is in a conservation area it would be worth getting hold of a copy of the Council's planning guidelines for the area.

I dont believe you cant be asked to undo something which existed at the time of listing. Your cement render over the windows would be a cse in point.

Houses of this type were often built quite cheaply and the original builders would probably be astonished to know that they had survived into the 21st Century. The sagging roof is no surprise and not unusual. Roof timbers can be reinforced internally if needed by doubling them up by bolting on new timbers. We did this in our current house, which dates from 1840. Some subsidence and cracking of brickwork is not uncommon in London houses of this age (if that is what your house is); they sit on top of clay, with negligable foundations. Problems can arise especially if there are large trees nearby or the house is on a slope, but yours looks sound from the photos.

Another problem which can occur is delamination of the brickwork on the facade (our previous house in Islington had suffered from this in the past). What might look like a solid wall of London Stocks in well executed Flemish Bond could be less substantial than it seems. Some builders would make the inner layer in a cheaper brick then cut corners further by using half bricks to form the headers in the Flemish bond. Where this has been done there is very little to tie the two layers of brick together. Tell tale indications are bulging brickwork and signs that bricks have been relaid, especially on the top storey below the eaves. Again, looking at the photos, yours looks in pretty good shape.

I have always had independent surveys done before buying a house but they have never been terribly useful. However given the size of the investment you are making it is probably a false economy not to.

Good luck!

 

[stuart45]

The pointing style looks like weather struck and cut, which makes the brickwork appear to be more uniform. It's angled out slightly on the bed joints, so the bottom is slightly proud of the brickwork. The bottom edge is cut off using a bent knife run along a straight edge. Up to 20 years ago it was quite a popular method for repointing jobs. It was also used a lot on new builds in the 30's.
Repointing was often done with a strong mix years ago, often 2 or 3 to 1 sand/cement.

 

[PeterI]

Thanks to all for your comments.

As far as the bank are concerned I'm now convinced that going with the cheapest option would be my best bet. Several of you have commented on the frustration of full survey reports that seem to be an exercise in boiler plated stock phrases.

I think the roof has had that slight sag for at least ten years, looking on the "images of england" site I think I can see it. Current plan is to get a roofing firm in (the ones my flat management company have used don't seem to recommend work that doesn't need doing) and see what they say about.

I think I need to ask the vendor what the story is in the basement (tanked or not etc) it certainly didn't smell of damp when we went round.

I think I need to see what the CO says about the pointing, the other half of the building doesn't have that style and I'm pretty sure it's not on the 1971 photo (The building was listed in 1973)

Nigel, I'm sure you're right about party wall, the property is in south london (I'm moving from camden) and is shown clearly on a tithe map of 1844, probably on 1837 and maybe 1830. The metropolitan building act area was expanded in 1844 so I think the building predates this.The heritage reports I can find reckon it was very early speculative building before the estate committee for the area started.

Think I need to find a decent surveyor who I get the feeling will do the bit of extra work required.

 

[MatthewC]

I think I need to see what the CO says about the pointing, the other half of the building doesn't have that style and I'm pretty sure it's not on the 1971 photo (The building was listed in 1973)

Why do you want to ask the CO? Personally I've no doubt that the CO will prefer to see proper lime pointing instead of that modern trendy stuff. If you are going anyway to sort the pointing (which might not be a priority) then fine, but if not I'd leave it until my to-do list gets shorter.

 

[PeterI]

I think I need to see what the CO says about the pointing, the other half of the building doesn't have that style and I'm pretty sure it's not on the 1971 photo (The building was listed in 1973)

Why do you want to ask the CO? Personally I've no doubt that the CO will prefer to see proper lime pointing instead of that modern trendy stuff. If you are going anyway to sort the pointing (which might not be a priority) then fine, but if not I'd leave it until my to-do list gets shorter.

Ah I'm not going to ask the CO, however I have a feeling that the lawyers / banks might get the CO involved. Apparently the CO examined next door during their recent purchase (2011) so I suspect some sort of CO inspection may be requested.

Anyway we've passed our financial inspection, paid the valuation fee to the bank (and no choice who does the valuation survey), next stage valuers visit... From talking to my wife I suspect I'm little more relaxed about getting a full survey than she is. I'm just going to wait to see what the bank requires then figure out next moves from there.

 

[Footdoctor]

I'm a bit concerned about this "hard cement" (that's what a planning application describes it as) pointing here:

Hi Peter.
This is cement 'Strap Pointing'. It became fashionable in the 80's and is the CURSE of West Yorkshire !!
Well, that and the continuing monsoons!

 

[PeterI]

The pointing is something that I need to think hard about. "Strap Pointing" seems to be a bad idea

http://www.ehsni.gov.uk/repointing.pdf

Just had a quick chat with a repointing guy in SE london who said work on £50-60 per sq metre assuming the heritage folks get them to rake out by hand, £40 if they can use machine tools. Which if I can work square metres correctly means probably somewhere around the 8-10K mark which is at least low enough that I won't have nightmares. I suspect this may turn into a case of doing the windows, roof and wall all at one time to avoid paying for multiple scaffolding jobs.

 

[88v8]

Just had a quick chat with a repointing guy in SE london who said work on £50-60 per sq metre assuming the heritage folks get them to rake out by hand, £40 if they can use machine tools.

Absolutely do not let them rake out with machine tools. Only needs one slip to make a lovely mess of your bricks.

I very much doubt that CO will get involved in your purchase, unless you call them in for some specific reason. Perhaps if it were Grade 1(?), otherwise they simply don't have the time.

Ivor