Hopeful purchase, am I being too hopeful?

[Dminer]

Hi all,

Firstly ill apologise for asking a question that can not be answered in true fashion and im sure you may have had similar questions previously.
We are currently in the process of relocating from the south east of England to (hopefully) the Norfolk/Suffolk border, with this, we very much like the idea of a period property in a rural location and we are not by any means shy of buying a property that needs some love.

We have found a C16 Manor house which appears it would have originally been a 3 cell open hall but of course has had centuries of additions and adaptions.. most interestingly it has some incredible renaissance style carvings on the main structural timbers on the interior as well as original mullion windows which are incredibly beautiful.
Unfortunately, the previous owners decided to give the property a new lease of life during the 70's and this sadly meant cement based render on all four elevations. At first glance you can clearly see hairline cracks along the joints of the timbers that lay hidden beneath, desperately asking to be set free and allowed to breath!
My question is, after circa 30 years, how far gone are the timbers likely to be... are we biting off more than we can chew here?
We both love the idea of saving a piece of true English heritage and doing our bit to ensure this place stays standing for another 100+ years but with finances being a finite resource we also need to be realistic.

The property also needs a kitchen and bathroom, luckily we can put a rough estimate on such works, what may be exposed once the render is removed is what has me questioning our sanity and if this is at all realistic.

We would very much appreciate the point of view from any members here who may have had a similar experience, I can of course provide plenty of pictures but the fact we have not formally made and had an offer accepted I am somewhat hesitant to publicly post photos of a property still listed on the open market for the vendors sake.

Many thanks

 

[malcolm]

It probably is worth putting photos up. The owners won't mind - it's advertising for them. 1970s was more than 40 years ago. My only experience of oak frames covered in concrete had been covered for 100 years and there was nothing left apart from some bits that were able to let water out to the inside. You won't know what is there until you get the cement off but it would be sensible to budget for sole plate replacement and a fair few timber repairs.

There are a few timber frame people in Suffolk. https://www.emmersoncritchley.co.uk/ is good. Worth contacting directly to ask their opinion.

 

[Dminer]

Thanks Malcolm, appreciate the swift response.

We will most certainly be asking a local specialist to carry out a preliminary survey before we proceed, I'm just trying to get my head around what I could be in for before we instruct anyone.
I will upload some pictures below, one main side elevation where the cracking of the cement render can be seen.

In fairness, all of the timbers look fantastic internally, all barring one above a window opening as seen in the close up, one can only assume this is due to water pooling on the head of the window frame and not being able to dry out due to the render. I would expect all of these timbers to be in pretty poor condition but one certainly seems to have started to break through into the interior.

Link to the property listing:

Check out this 4 bedroom detached house for sale on Rightmove

4 bedroom detached house for sale in Mellis Road, Thrandeston, IP21 for £625,000. Marketed by Harrison Edge Limited, Eye

www.rightmove.co.uk

 

[malcolm]

It is very helpful the frame is exposed on the inside. It should have been able to dry to the inside so it won't be completely dust. Tricky to say what the exterior finish will be like as it will have been wetter under the cement. I'll have to defer to others on here.

 

[Cubist]

Well... if I were thinking of buying that place then.... after I'd hunted down and done terrible things to the people that coated the house in cement, my worries would turn to...everything!

Until the exterior faces of the timbers are exposed theres no real way to ascertain their condition and whether there are major issues affecting the integrity of the structure as a whole. Unless you have deep pockets or can find a specialist surveyor who is equipped to conduct some invasive testing - assuming the PO allows - it may be wise to run away. Question is, do you feel lucky or are you able to negotiate the price down to a level at which you're prepared to take a punt?

 

[Dminer]

Well... if I were thinking of buying that place then.... after I'd hunted down and done terrible things to the people that coated the house in cement, my worries would turn to...everything!

Until the exterior faces of the timbers are exposed theres no real way to ascertain their condition and whether there are major issues affecting the integrity of the structure as a whole. Unless you have deep pockets or can find a specialist surveyor who is equipped to conduct some invasive testing - assuming the PO allows - it may be wise to run away. Question is, do you feel lucky or are you able to negotiate the price down to a level at which you're prepared to take a punt?

I agree, its a sad state of affairs to witness such things done to such a building.
Unfortunately, what's done is done and the residents likely put their trust and hard earned cash in the hands of a "builder"...

We would aim to have a contingency fund in place should we proceed, we are certainly willing to go through the upheaval of doing what work we can ourselves and bringing in the professionals where it is necessary, however, I have no idea what a realistic contingency fund should amount too with the worst possible scenario in mind, given the information we have, I'm assuming ill want at least £60-80k put aside for the scaffolding, repairs of any timbers, new lambswool insulation and lime rendering. However, this figure is simply plucked from thin air having having just been just scouring this forum and trying to gauge costs of similar jobs.
I cant imagine the current vendors will allow for an intrusive surveying, to my knowledge its the children of the PO but I do feel the price may be negotiable to some extent.

I plan to get back to them early next week week once we have had some time to mull over things a bit more and intend to meet with a local specialist at the site before committing to anything, I'm hoping they can give me a worst case scenario expectation large enough to scare me away!

 

[Lacan07]

I agree, its a sad state of affairs to witness such things done to such a building.
Unfortunately, what's done is done and the residents likely put their trust and hard earned cash in the hands of a "builder"...

We would aim to have a contingency fund in place should we proceed, we are certainly willing to go through the upheaval of doing what work we can ourselves and bringing in the professionals where it is necessary, however, I have no idea what a realistic contingency fund should amount too with the worst possible scenario in mind, given the information we have, I'm assuming ill want at least £60-80k put aside for the scaffolding, repairs of any timbers, new lambswool insulation and lime rendering. However, this figure is simply plucked from thin air having having just been just scouring this forum and trying to gauge costs of similar jobs.
I cant imagine the current vendors will allow for an intrusive surveying, to my knowledge its the children of the PO but I do feel the price may be negotiable to some extent.

I plan to get back to them early next week week once we have had some time to mull over things a bit more and intend to meet with a local specialist at the site before committing to anything, I'm hoping they can give me a worst case scenario expectation large enough to scare me away!

The main thing is it looks perfectly liveable in its current state so I would base your contingency budget around the external render and the roof and with that in mind you could contact one of the heritage surveyors like Peter Ward to give it the once over. I'm sure they can give you a worst case scenario with regards to the render, and anything else lurking within like ground floor damp, etc. That way you'll no if you can definitely afford it or not. The only way to mitigate the risk is to expect the worst, anything after that is a bonus.

 

[TudorCottage]

I’m no expert in this field by any stretch of imagination, other than the fact we’ve now been living in our 500 year old timber framed cottage for nearly a year.

As far as I can tell the majority of our wooden frame is not covered in render and where render is used on the infills it appears to be lime.

But the pictures of the interior frame look to be in much better shape than ours. Better as in they appear to have a much more uniform state. Ours are not particularly uniform but still fill very solid.

Its always going to be a leap of faith buying property of this age and the surveyor we used did advise either a nice contingency fund or a handy knowledge of DIY. Or better still a combination of both. So far my limited knowledge of DIY has been enough!!

In the end we decided if the cottage has stood here for 500 years would could possibly go wrong in our short tenure

 

[88v8]

Hi all,

Firstly ill apologise for asking a question that can not be answered in true fashion and im sure you may have had similar questions previously.
....cement based render on all four elevations. At first glance you can clearly see hairline cracks along the joints of the timbers that lay hidden beneath, desperately asking to be set free and allowed to breath!
My question is, after circa 30 years, how far gone are the timbers likely to be... are we biting off more than we can chew here?

As I commented on this thread it may be a money pit.
After all, why was it rendered in the first place... likely to avoid repairs.

The difference here is that the house was of very high quality with the carving and dense framing, and worth spending six figures on, but in terms of immediate cost it doesn't really need a new kitchen and bathroom does it... they look perfectly livable or a DIY job.... in fact from what I've seen of modern bathrooms they would be a ghastly blot.... so that's a few thousand you can devote to the repairs.

Ivor

 

[Cubist]

Putting my old professional hat on, most of my career was spent in Uncertainty Management in global enterprises, and being someone who decided to take on a 16C listed building some year ago, I closely empathise with your quandary. It's a beautiful home in a lovely setting and the previous owners seem not to have stinted on their investments in the place. Those, I think, being the upsides in a nutshell. On the other hand the downsides include a Grade2* listing and buried in a cement render that is already showing signs of failure.

To my mind though your final decision will come down to your taste for risk and the potential scale of the table stakes.

Arriving at a reliable understanding of what those table stakes may be needs careful consideration but sadly you are most likely to hear 'sharp intakes of breath' from anyone you may ask for reliable estimates. The best advice I can offer would be to base your estimate of the potential costs on the formula (Most Optimistic Cost + Most Pessimistic Cost + 4x the Most Likely Cost)/6 where:

• Most Optimistic Cost is based on removing the extant render, minor make good and re-render with lime products
• Most Pessimistic Cost is based on stripping the render, replacing some/all of the sill plates, and extensive frame repairs, etc.
• Most Likely Cost is based on strip and replace render after making one significant and several minor repairs to the frame.

All of which would have to be done under the eagle eye of a CO applying G2* rules regarding the materials and methods used.

Personally speaking I would thinking in terms of a Worst Case Estimate in the order of 75% of the asking price.

 

[Dminer]

The main thing is it looks perfectly liveable in its current state so I would base your contingency budget around the external render and the roof and with that in mind you could contact one of the heritage surveyors like Peter Ward to give it the once over. I'm sure they can give you a worst case scenario with regards to the render, and anything else lurking within like ground floor damp, etc. That way you'll no if you can definitely afford it or not. The only way to mitigate the risk is to expect the worst, anything after that is a bonus.

Exactly my thought process and funny enough Peter was going to be my first port of call!

After all, why was it rendered in the first place... likely to avoid repairs.

I genuinely believe it was just a sheer lack of understanding, the previous owners certainly didn't make any cut backs when replacing things that were neccessary.

but in terms of immediate cost it doesn't really need a new kitchen and bathroom does it... they look perfectly livable or a DIY job.... in fact from what I've seen of modern bathrooms they would be a ghastly blot.... so that's a few thousand you can devote to the repairs.

Agreed, the structure and preservation of the building will most certainly take priority, besides, the kitchen and bathroom will be fitted by myself so shouldn't eat through too much of the budget.

To my mind though your final decision will come down to your taste for risk and the potential scale of the table stakes.

Arriving at a reliable understanding of what those table stakes may be needs careful consideration but sadly you are most likely to hear 'sharp intakes of breath' from anyone you may ask for reliable estimates. The best advice I can offer would be to base your estimate of the potential costs on the formula (Most Optimistic Cost + Most Pessimistic Cost + 4x the Most Likely Cost)/6 where:

• Most Optimistic Cost is based on removing the extant render, minor make good and re-render with lime products
• Most Pessimistic Cost is based on stripping the render, replacing some/all of the sill plates, and extensive frame repairs, etc.
• Most Likely Cost is based on strip and replace render after making one significant and several minor repairs to the frame.

All of which would have to be done under the eagle eye of a CO applying G2* rules regarding the materials and methods used.

Personally speaking I would thinking in terms of a Worst Case Estimate in the order of 75% of the asking price.

Thank you for this Cubist, not a thought process I would have considered and assume the formula is something you've picked up given your background, the final figure of 75% of the asking price is exactly what i needed to scare me off! It's sadly just not realistic though we shan't call it off entirely until someone such as Peter Ward sees the building in person for a final evaluation.

Very much appreciate the response so far from each of you.
Many thanks,
D

 

[Cubist]

Please don't let me be a damp squib. My background dictates that I always consider the worst possible outcome to better understand how I can prevent just that. In your position I would be calling Peter but would be keeping in mind he can be rather gloomy too in his evaluations. However, he will have a much better grasp of how best, and access to better tools and methods, to evaluate the condition of the underlying frame than most. This ones not in the 'grab your Nikes category' yet and it's certainly worth saving.