biffvernon
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The Government have changed their mind on including the Home Condition Report next June. 
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Penners
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Yup - apparently the HCR will not now be compulsory, although the Home Information Pack plan is still going ahead.
Main reason for the U-turn? Building societies have said they won't accept the HCR for mortgage purposes.
Main reason for the U-turn? Building societies have said they won't accept the HCR for mortgage purposes.
Johneds
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I heard the building society reason quoted today but it doesn't ring true to me. The home condition report has no element of valuation in it so couldn't replace the standard valuation report.
I think the real reason is that the Gov. thought that chartered surveyors would fall over themselves to sign up to become inspectors but in fact very few have. It was originally predicted that 7000 inspectors would be needed but in fact there will only be in the region of 1500 to 2000 by next June. (7000 is an underestimate anyway because it assumes inspectors will do this type of work full time whereas most independants - such as myself - do other work as well.)
Come next June there wouldn't have been anywhere near enough qualified inspectors to do the surveys and the ensuing backlog would have ground the system to a complete and utterly embarrasing halt.
I think the real reason is that the Gov. thought that chartered surveyors would fall over themselves to sign up to become inspectors but in fact very few have. It was originally predicted that 7000 inspectors would be needed but in fact there will only be in the region of 1500 to 2000 by next June. (7000 is an underestimate anyway because it assumes inspectors will do this type of work full time whereas most independants - such as myself - do other work as well.)
Come next June there wouldn't have been anywhere near enough qualified inspectors to do the surveys and the ensuing backlog would have ground the system to a complete and utterly embarrasing halt.
biffvernon
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Plus they had Kirsty Allsop to contend with.
thiambal
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Aye, she is a whole lot of woman - I wouldn't want to fight her.
Personally, I think the real reason is that they have realised that if you have to pay an additional £1000 to move house many people will deicde not to - this will lead to a depression in the housing market - a drop in house prices and then plunge large numbers of people into finanical crisis - negative equity etc.
If that happens, all the crosses at the next election will be going firmly in the Monster Raving Looney box.
Personally, I think the real reason is that they have realised that if you have to pay an additional £1000 to move house many people will deicde not to - this will lead to a depression in the housing market - a drop in house prices and then plunge large numbers of people into finanical crisis - negative equity etc.
If that happens, all the crosses at the next election will be going firmly in the Monster Raving Looney box.
Paul Hopper
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Johneds
HIPS etc.,
I think you are spot on,
I fear it will lurk for a while in the background but Chartered folk in busy practice will struggle to find time,
Paul
HIPS etc.,
I think you are spot on,
I fear it will lurk for a while in the background but Chartered folk in busy practice will struggle to find time,
Paul
CHRIS
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I saw a report in one of the Sunday papers a few weeks ago about all these people who paid quite large sums of money to go on these Inspector training courses run by a few companies - what is going to happen to them?
I think a lot of people saw easy money to be made from this but now it seems not so, I knew it was duff that you could send a failed brickie on one of these courses and he could right reports that people spend years of training to be able to do.
just in
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2006/07/19/uhips19.xml&sSheet=/money/2006/07/19/ixcitytop.html
I think a lot of people saw easy money to be made from this but now it seems not so, I knew it was duff that you could send a failed brickie on one of these courses and he could right reports that people spend years of training to be able to do.
just in
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2006/07/19/uhips19.xml&sSheet=/money/2006/07/19/ixcitytop.html
Johneds
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A few of them will be feeling a bit fed up about now, that's for sure. And what about the numbers of people that are in mid training? I know of at least three people who are coming up to the end of the first year of courses lasting between two and three years and costing between £8000 and £12000.
The answer is that it hasn't gone away completely yet. Apart from the three or four thousand individuals that have made fairly large personal investments one or two of the bigger companies have made investments running into many £millions and have allready employed hundreds of the available surveyors.
The Gov. DCLG website says that due to 'concerns about the readiness of industry' it has been decided to 'phase' the introduction to avoid a 'big bang' introduction. (I'm paraphrasing this) In other words they haven't got enough surveyors at the moment but when they do it will be back. In reality it was never going to get off the ground without chartered surveyors being on board. And that isn't likely to happen until their existing qualifications are fully recognised and the cost comes down. (currently two grand for a fully qualified and experienced CS - and rising depending on experience and level of quals etc.)
There is still the energy survey of course. That is still happening and will cost proportionately more due to the fact that the surveyor has to make a special trip to do it rather than do it whilst on site doing a home condition report.
The answer is that it hasn't gone away completely yet. Apart from the three or four thousand individuals that have made fairly large personal investments one or two of the bigger companies have made investments running into many £millions and have allready employed hundreds of the available surveyors.
The Gov. DCLG website says that due to 'concerns about the readiness of industry' it has been decided to 'phase' the introduction to avoid a 'big bang' introduction. (I'm paraphrasing this) In other words they haven't got enough surveyors at the moment but when they do it will be back. In reality it was never going to get off the ground without chartered surveyors being on board. And that isn't likely to happen until their existing qualifications are fully recognised and the cost comes down. (currently two grand for a fully qualified and experienced CS - and rising depending on experience and level of quals etc.)
There is still the energy survey of course. That is still happening and will cost proportionately more due to the fact that the surveyor has to make a special trip to do it rather than do it whilst on site doing a home condition report.
Penners
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John - why do you think that is? Are the offered fees (presumably a standard scale) unrealistic?Johneds said:
I'm not trying to imply a "...don't get out of bed for less than..." attitude on the part of your brethren, but obviously you're not going to give up other work if the offered HCR fees are less remunerative.
Johneds
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I don't really think it was a fee motivated thing David. It was more due to the fact that in the early days it looked like there were no credits for being a chartered surveyor and we had to pay the full wack fee (all two grand of it) and jump through the same hoops to get the HI qualification as white van man. Obviously a lot of CS's (dare I say mostly the old guard) were up in arms because they thought that their hard won qualifications and professional status was being swept aside.
In reality this was partly a misunderstanding caused by the early information on qualifications being very sketchy. It actually turned out that white van man would have to jump through a lot more hoops and pay a lot more dosh. But it was too late, the damage was done. CS's started to look for other things to attack and the whole thing started to pull apart at the seams.
I don't want it to sound like the chartered lot have brought this down single handed. There are organisations that have chipped away at it right from the start including the lawyers, the mortgage lenders and quite a few of the estate agency crowd. But in the end I'm sure the final nail was the lack of HI's to make the thing work. If a couple more thousand CS's had gone over earlier then there would probably have been enough and I'm certain it would have happened.
Personally I was originally quite enthusiastic about it. I went through the early training to become a registered RICS assessor (assessing new HI's) and I was all set to be right in the thick of it. But as time has gone by more and more things have emerged that concern me and I have become more and more sceptical.
In reality this was partly a misunderstanding caused by the early information on qualifications being very sketchy. It actually turned out that white van man would have to jump through a lot more hoops and pay a lot more dosh. But it was too late, the damage was done. CS's started to look for other things to attack and the whole thing started to pull apart at the seams.
I don't want it to sound like the chartered lot have brought this down single handed. There are organisations that have chipped away at it right from the start including the lawyers, the mortgage lenders and quite a few of the estate agency crowd. But in the end I'm sure the final nail was the lack of HI's to make the thing work. If a couple more thousand CS's had gone over earlier then there would probably have been enough and I'm certain it would have happened.
Personally I was originally quite enthusiastic about it. I went through the early training to become a registered RICS assessor (assessing new HI's) and I was all set to be right in the thick of it. But as time has gone by more and more things have emerged that concern me and I have become more and more sceptical.
londonman
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Energy Survey.....
How realistic is this going to be for old properties, solid stone walls, solid floors (in part), floating floors elsewhere...how would they know whether there is sufficient insulation underneath a concrete floor or not?
I remember when we bought our current property...part 300year old timber, part 1800's Georgian addition to the front (forming the second gable), huge amount of work needed, bowing walls, damp...you've probably all been there.
The first valuation surveyor for the mortgage company was way outside his league and more suited to 'boxes' on estates as he wouldn't recommend giving us the mortgage. So we ended up getting a more sympathetic, realistic, mature, pragmatic surveyor.
I can just see the first surveyor coming along to do an energy report!
How realistic is this going to be for old properties, solid stone walls, solid floors (in part), floating floors elsewhere...how would they know whether there is sufficient insulation underneath a concrete floor or not?
I remember when we bought our current property...part 300year old timber, part 1800's Georgian addition to the front (forming the second gable), huge amount of work needed, bowing walls, damp...you've probably all been there.
The first valuation surveyor for the mortgage company was way outside his league and more suited to 'boxes' on estates as he wouldn't recommend giving us the mortgage. So we ended up getting a more sympathetic, realistic, mature, pragmatic surveyor.
I can just see the first surveyor coming along to do an energy report!
Penners
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So do you think it will ever see the light of day, in its originally intended form?Johneds said:
I'm in two minds about the whole scheme, particularly as it would apply to period properties. One the one hand, I don't see how a "standardised" survey scheme could work for properties that are, by definition, unique.
On the other hand, I do have a feeling that a competent HCR could put an end to the tedious business of:-
* make an offer>
* get a survey done>
* try to beat the price down further because of problems highlighted in the survey
The vendor could simply point to the HCR and say "you made your offer in the full knowledge of these problems".
Or am I excessively optimistic?!
londonman
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No I think that we are being naive to think that the HIP or variants thereof will make a blind bit of difference. In the final analysis, person a makes an offer (with whatever conditions are present) to person b. Person b either accepts or does not. It is irrelevant for person b to say to a but you knew about these things before.
I cant help thinking the energy surveys will be a mess. As said there are many houses around with mixed construction, and even the well qualified folk couldnt get this house right. The not so well qualified are miles away in terms of working out whats going on. The CH fitters calculations were out by a factor of 4, and so on. I have no faith in this.
NT
NT
londonman
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NT said:
Why to factor in the 'u' value of all that hot air from Westminster :twisted:
These stupid packs were introduced because somebody objected to gazumping - but for every one of us who complains a seller mistreated us, there is another of us glad we could "jump in and snap it up" and another of us happy to receive a suddently increased price.
Cant see the pack stopping that?
Also, a lot of the information is time critical so it will become useless after a few weeks/months (local searches etc) so as a buyer you will end up redoing it - same with the stupid surveys when they come in - imagine buying something with a 1yr old survey (and frankly, not even a very detailed survey).
Its an odd piece of social engineering - trying to make us all behave better whilst transferring wealth from one group to another (from owners to would be owners).
Apparently, you are exempt from the need to do a HIP if your house is on the market at the time they come into force - so why not pop it on the market now for £10,000,000. You can always reduce the price when you really need to sell. :lol:
Cant see the pack stopping that?
Also, a lot of the information is time critical so it will become useless after a few weeks/months (local searches etc) so as a buyer you will end up redoing it - same with the stupid surveys when they come in - imagine buying something with a 1yr old survey (and frankly, not even a very detailed survey).
Its an odd piece of social engineering - trying to make us all behave better whilst transferring wealth from one group to another (from owners to would be owners).
Apparently, you are exempt from the need to do a HIP if your house is on the market at the time they come into force - so why not pop it on the market now for £10,000,000. You can always reduce the price when you really need to sell. :lol:
thiambal
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I am not accepting a mere £10,000,000 for my house - not with all the blood, sweat, toil and tears :wink:
Now do I hear £11,000,000?
Now do I hear £11,000,000?
Stephen
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This thread raises a number of issues. I will try, briefly to address some.
Yes, HCR was limited in what it aimed to do and yes all residential property was to be included. However, I was working hard behind the scenes to ensure that there was some assurance with regard to the competence of HIs dealing with older buildings. In fact only last week RICS had agreed in principal to a formal Guidance Note on the inspection of older buildings for HCR purposes. I was due to start writing it soon - I now have some spare time!
I have always been in favour of some system of keeping a log book of a building and I believe that the process of negotiation would be made easier and more open, if not quicker, if information were provided up front. In principal I therefore liked the idea of the HIP.
The HCR is a limited form of report aimed at giving an objective assessment of a building. It was never intended to give subjective advice. However, it opened the door for sellers or purchaser to seek that further advice once the HCR had been produced. For what it was the final form of the HCR was not a bad report format. However, I am not convinced that it would have given what the public expected (although press reports of what it didn't do were wildly out). There is now an opportunity for RICS to consider a variety of report formats and how sellers and/or purchasers are advised. In my opinion the whole system of surveys (including mortgage valuations) needs a shake up.
RICS is continuing to work on these issues and I believe I am to be involved and will therefore give an update as and when appropriate.
On the matter of energy assessments, this is simply so that the government can comply with their committments under the EU Directive. Every building in the country will eventually have to have an assessment.
There are major flaws in that the assessments systems require a number of assumptions to be made. More importantly the scientific data on which the assessments are based is very limited and certainly does not include unusual or traditional materials. The assessments on older and unusual buildings will therefore be fundamentally flawed.
I know EH is working on various matters to try to ensure that where 'upgrading' is undertaken it is dealt with sympathetically. They are looking at alternative ways of complying with regulations. I am told this will be out by the end of the year.
I hope this gives you some idea of what has been going on. As you can imagine this last few days has been somewhat frenetic on this matter.
Yes, HCR was limited in what it aimed to do and yes all residential property was to be included. However, I was working hard behind the scenes to ensure that there was some assurance with regard to the competence of HIs dealing with older buildings. In fact only last week RICS had agreed in principal to a formal Guidance Note on the inspection of older buildings for HCR purposes. I was due to start writing it soon - I now have some spare time!
I have always been in favour of some system of keeping a log book of a building and I believe that the process of negotiation would be made easier and more open, if not quicker, if information were provided up front. In principal I therefore liked the idea of the HIP.
The HCR is a limited form of report aimed at giving an objective assessment of a building. It was never intended to give subjective advice. However, it opened the door for sellers or purchaser to seek that further advice once the HCR had been produced. For what it was the final form of the HCR was not a bad report format. However, I am not convinced that it would have given what the public expected (although press reports of what it didn't do were wildly out). There is now an opportunity for RICS to consider a variety of report formats and how sellers and/or purchasers are advised. In my opinion the whole system of surveys (including mortgage valuations) needs a shake up.
RICS is continuing to work on these issues and I believe I am to be involved and will therefore give an update as and when appropriate.
On the matter of energy assessments, this is simply so that the government can comply with their committments under the EU Directive. Every building in the country will eventually have to have an assessment.
There are major flaws in that the assessments systems require a number of assumptions to be made. More importantly the scientific data on which the assessments are based is very limited and certainly does not include unusual or traditional materials. The assessments on older and unusual buildings will therefore be fundamentally flawed.
I know EH is working on various matters to try to ensure that where 'upgrading' is undertaken it is dealt with sympathetically. They are looking at alternative ways of complying with regulations. I am told this will be out by the end of the year.
I hope this gives you some idea of what has been going on. As you can imagine this last few days has been somewhat frenetic on this matter.
Stephen:
> There are major flaws in that the assessments systems require a number of assumptions to be made. More importantly the scientific data on which the assessments are based is very limited and certainly does not include unusual or traditional materials. The assessments on older and unusual buildings will therefore be fundamentally flawed.
With many milions of old properties I could only agree with that word 'major.' Whats going to happen in practice when people get back reports that are cobblers? If I got one saying the property needs 4x as much heating power as it does, which will surely affect sale price and saleability, I'm not going to want to pay until its corrected. And if it was so b-ed up the first time round, whats the odds of that inspector having enough knowledge to be able to put it right? Millions of claims here we come.
NT
> There are major flaws in that the assessments systems require a number of assumptions to be made. More importantly the scientific data on which the assessments are based is very limited and certainly does not include unusual or traditional materials. The assessments on older and unusual buildings will therefore be fundamentally flawed.
With many milions of old properties I could only agree with that word 'major.' Whats going to happen in practice when people get back reports that are cobblers? If I got one saying the property needs 4x as much heating power as it does, which will surely affect sale price and saleability, I'm not going to want to pay until its corrected. And if it was so b-ed up the first time round, whats the odds of that inspector having enough knowledge to be able to put it right? Millions of claims here we come.
NT