Help! Victorian Property Survey Drama

[OnionRingx]

Hi all helpful people of this site.

Edited to add photos of the back patio and hallway wall.


I am buying Victorian terrace in London. My L3 Survey came back with some damp readings I was aware of already during the viewing (some yellowing on a party wall mainly around sockets).

I have upon advice commissioned a survey for damp specifically. The damp surveyor was also using the pin machine and came back with readings from Dry to ‘can’t believe it’s not floating away’ and information it’s probably been plastered with cement where it’s dry and something else during renovation where it’s not.
Readings pretty much all over ground floor (apart from an extension running through 3/4 of the width of the property and around chimney stacks).

Some readings even quite high (wall close to the door about 1.5m high) and a bit of a ‘spring’ in floor in one spot next to the wall which has blocked airbricks.
He also listed the regular things I was expecting- blocked airbricks on one side, raised ground levels, cracked render, leaky gutters.

Reading it I thought it was all within my means to sort it and I was not concerned at all as it was what I expected.

However he then proceeded to say that as he never does that but he advises against purchase due to the fact that the drying will be lengthy, during the drying I might get dry rot (no evidence now) and also that ventilation will never be great due to the extension with concrete floor.
He also said that his advice is because he can’t investigate what’s happening underneath

I am shocked to say the least.

I am planning to request from the seller to instruct someone to investigate subfloor for sign of leaks and rot (plus have a look if the wall is wet there ) and provide certified report od this. They are also supposed to get someone to put a listening device on the mains pipe as I’m pretty sure it runs under the house but…

Am I crazy to go against his advice? He doesn’t sell DPC but was not one of the £900 heritage places surveyors so… I’m completely broken today.

Thank you for any advice

 

[a twig]

However he then proceeded to say that as he never does that but he advises against purchase due to the fact that the drying will be lengthy, during the drying I might get dry rot (no evidence now) and also that ventilation will never be great due to the extension with concrete floor.
He also said that his advice is because he can’t investigate what’s happening underneath

Codswallop

Ventilation can always be improved even with adjacent concrete floors

Drying does take a while but will be months rather than years. The house could also be struck by lightning during this period…

And the last bit sums it up, arse covering because he can’t be arsed to get under the floorboards

Cracked render, rainwater goods and ground levels etc are far more likely to be the cause. If there is a leaking mains water pipe you will be able to hear it, I had one where the leak was in the driveway about 15m from where the pipe entered the property and yet you could still hear it inside the house as the noise travelled down the pipes.

In short, don’t reject the idea yet, if it were me I’d have a good look under the floorboards and then if work is needed you can adjust your offer accordingly

As for surveyors, I have had one find “rising damp” on the second floor, and another assure me asbestos was plasterboard. Both independent, just rubbish.

 

[OnionRingx]

Codswallop

Ventilation can always be improved even with adjacent concrete floors

Drying does take a while but will be months rather than years. The house could also be struck by lightning during this period…

And the last bit sums it up, arse covering because he can’t be arsed to get under the floorboards

Cracked render, rainwater goods and ground levels etc are far more likely to be the cause. If there is a leaking mains water pipe you will be able to hear it, I had one where the leak was in the driveway about 15m from where the pipe entered the property and yet you could still hear it inside the house as the noise travelled down the pipes.

In short, don’t reject the idea yet, if it were me I’d have a good look under the floorboards and then if work is needed you can adjust your offer accordingly

As for surveyors, I have had one find “rising damp” on the second floor, and another assure me asbestos was plasterboard. Both independent, just rubbish.

Thank you. I do not really understand his advice to be fair. He said that even if the suspected plumbing leak is rectified the risk of decay will continue for considerable time and may not go away completely.

And there is nothing over ground to suggest it other than the plaster discolouration and high meter readings (no smell, only maybe one wonky floor spot which previous surveyor didn’t notice and that in the place where there would be ventilation once airbrick is open).

Ok, vendor has to arrange for someone to open underfloor and see if there is a leak and what the state of the subfloor is. I am also holding out hope it’s one of the Peter Ward’s situations where underfloor is dry hah!

 

[Lacan07]

Thank you. I do not really understand his advice to be fair. He said that even if the suspected plumbing leak is rectified the risk of decay will continue for considerable time and may not go away completely.

Risk of decay of what exactly? If the causes of damp are fixed and the timbers are left to dry any rot will be deactivated. Like all things on this planet it needs moisture to survive.

 

[OnionRingx]

Risk of decay of what exactly? If the causes of damp are fixed and the timbers are left to dry any rot will be deactivated. Like all things on this planet it needs moisture to survive.

I think he had in mind that if it’s very wet then as it dries it might develop dry rot and that since 3/4 or 2/3 width of the house is extended on a concrete slab at the back, to achieve full ventilation on that side would need to chase a 10cm ventilation pipe through the concrete extension floor (around 5m).

Basically left side of the house has airbricks on the front and one blocked one at the back while right side has no airbricks on the front under door and at the back there are blocked one in the kitchen (probably adds to condensation underfloor if anything). House is about 4m wide.

 

[Cubist]

I think he had in mind that if it’s very wet then as it dries it might develop dry rot and that since 3/4 or 2/3 width of the house is extended on a concrete slab at the back, to achieve full ventilation on that side would need to chase a 10cm ventilation pipe through the concrete extension floor (around 5m).

Where is this house, Barking, must be because that's absolutely Bonkers!

I would be careful with that surveyor, pretty soon he's going to say you need to buy a bridge to get over the damp - you should ask how many times he's sold Tower Bridge.

Sadly, I think you found an incompetent, rather than criminal - maybe - surveyor.

the house has airbricks on the front and one blocked one at the back while right side has no airbricks on the front under door and at the back there are blocked one in the kitchen (probably adds to condensation underfloor if anything)

Air-bricks are pointless where concrete floors have been installed and there is no longer a wooden floor. Are all the open air-bricks you can see associated with wooden floors in those rooms?

 

[Lacan07]

I think he had in mind that if it’s very wet then as it dries it might develop dry rot and that since 3/4 or 2/3 width of the house is extended on a concrete slab at the back, to achieve full ventilation on that side would need to chase a 10cm ventilation pipe through the concrete extension floor (around 5m).

Basically left side of the house has airbricks on the front and one blocked one at the back while right side has no airbricks on the front under door and at the back there are blocked one in the kitchen (probably adds to condensation underfloor if anything). House is about 4m wide.

"...as it dries it might develop dry rot".

That's a new one, lol.

 

[OnionRingx]

Where is this house, Barking, must be because that's absolutely Bonkers!

I would be careful with that surveyor, pretty soon he's going to say you need to buy a bridge to get over the damp - you should ask how many times he's sold Tower Bridge.

Sadly, I think you found an incompetent, rather than criminal - maybe - surveyor.


Air-bricks are pointless where concrete floors have been installed and there is no longer a wooden floor. Are all the open air-bricks you can see associated with wooden floors in those rooms?

Lol. So a concrete floor is where the extension is (and there is an ‘air slip’ with holes as the main building floor is around 2cm higher than kitchen- it is blocked). There is also one airbrick completely blocked at the back - top right of the plan- around middle of the red line (there is a window there). All airbricks lead to the timber sub floor (though there is only one at the back and blocked plus the airslip between kitchen and main building)

The rest of the airbricks (don’t look blocked) are at the front- in and around bay window.

The party wall on the left has yellowing and patchy plaster. Other places have some patchy plaster mostly around sockets or old sockets - where the wall was dry nearby he said it was because there was tanking cement there.

I have reached out to the vendors saying they need to open up underfloor to see the state of it and confirm if there is a leak at theirs or neighbours and if the joists are rotted (the surveyor mentioned bouncy floor next to the blocked airbrick in top right corner).

The vendors had a plumber in from Thames Water who said there is no leak on the mains.

Surveyor recommended lowering the ground levels at the back (v high) and adding an airbrick there closer to the kitchen.
He also said removing plaster to 1m and putting cement plaster and opening the floor to let it dry with dehumidifiers, heating etc assuming source of water is found.

As for the concrete floor airbrick- what he meant was chasing the floor in kitchen and bathroom to create a vent that would come out at the back of the bathroom extension and connect with underfloor in main building as he said that airbricks under the dining room wall (top right) would not be enough to circulate air from the hallways (he also suggested adding holes underneath the entrance as there is no vents there).

 

[OnionRingx]

"...as it dries it might develop dry rot".

That's a new one, lol.

As in it’s now probably soaked so wet rot but if it dries slowly and partially it might get to the 20% that allow for dry rot and never dry completely due to inadequate subfloor ventilation on the side of the building where there is no airbricks in straight line

 

[OnionRingx]

Where is this house, Barking, must be because that's absolutely Bonkers!

I would be careful with that surveyor, pretty soon he's going to say you need to buy a bridge to get over the damp - you should ask how many times he's sold Tower Bridge.

Sadly, I think you found an incompetent, rather than criminal - maybe - surveyor.


Air-bricks are pointless where concrete floors have been installed and there is no longer a wooden floor. Are all the open air-bricks you can see associated with wooden floors in those rooms?

As for the surveyor- he is PCA, used pin machine for readings and mentioned cement plaster so not good based on what I read.

He also however suggested a leak, doesn’t sell anything (like DPC) and didn’t recommend DPC either plus he charged me though not much (£300). He also thankfully didn’t suggest venting concrete (apologies for the misunderstanding here)- just chasing a vent in the concrete to vent side of the building with timber flooring and poor ventilation.
So I’d say I’m on a fence

I was just so shocked with an advice like this (fourth time in 35y advise against purchase) rather than ‘open up the floor to confirm what’s happening’ or ‘sample plaster’ since can’t tell otherwise.

He said he’ll try and send me estimate for ‘known’ works so we will see (NOT his company and no builder recommendations).

 

[jmo]

I feel for you, I went through this last week, though based on only a level 3 RICS report, who diagnosed rising damp in all ground floor walls based on the protimeter readings. No other signs of damp. He recommended a damp survey, and I assumed if I had commissioned one that the surveyor would be doing what yours apparently has not (lifting floor boards). So now you;re having to go to yet another expert, and no estimate? I wonder if these surveyors ever dare to buy homes themselves.

 

[OnionRingx]

I feel for you, I went through this last week, though based on only a level 3 RICS report, who diagnosed rising damp in all ground floor walls based on the protimeter readings. No other signs of damp. He recommended a damp survey, and I assumed if I had commissioned one that the surveyor would be doing what yours apparently has not (lifting floor boards). So now you;re having to go to yet another expert, and no estimate? I wonder if these surveyors ever dare to buy homes themselves.

Tbf most of the £800 surveyors said they prefer to work for owners because then they can be as intrusive as they want. I simply cannot understand how this surveyor decided it’s bad rather than saying ‘idk hard to tell’.
I spoken at lengths with the agent today and asked for the vendor to open up floors and that they can get their own timber report to share but I can come over with my builder to inspect as well. I also recommended the £800+ heritage home type surveyors.

I think there are following options
1) everything wet and rotten but with visible leak signs - repair and megoti
2) everything dry or mostly dry and issue worse overground than under - ok, small negotiation and go ahead
3) everything wet and falling apart and no signs of leak- probably walk
4) everything moist but no signs of rot- small negotiations and run to buy airbricks.

The house has every possibility to be wet downstairs (patio is level with airbrick so water probably flowing down with every rain though it’s mostly blocked so airflow almost impossible, only one airbrick at the back, one indoor airslip between kitchen and main building- obviously blocked but even if not- how is it to help, cracked render at the front bay window etc) and I’m good with all that but the report essentially said ‘don’t buy, you’ll never ventilate subfloor enough with that extension so it will always be bad’.
Shocked!

Ask vendor to open subfloor and pick a survey at least with underfloor camera

 

[OnionRingx]

I feel for you, I went through this last week, though based on only a level 3 RICS report, who diagnosed rising damp in all ground floor walls based on the protimeter readings. No other signs of damp. He recommended a damp survey, and I assumed if I had commissioned one that the surveyor would be doing what yours apparently has not (lifting floor boards). So now you;re having to go to yet another expert, and no estimate? I wonder if these surveyors ever dare to buy homes themselves.

Also if it makes you feel any better he said ‘In 35 years I only advised against purchase four times and this is one of them’.
And im yet to run.

In fairness to him though he did say the biggest issue is difficulty at adding bricks in right places to vent subfloor so problem with long term drying

 

[jmo]

I don't understand how he's made that decision either. It sounds like he's just put more doubt in your head and now you'll have to see for yourself / go ahead with more investigation.

My solution was to view the house again and judge for myself, which I did this week and decided to go ahead. The estate agent tried to recommend a local firm, which having looked at their website I was convinced would try to do the DPC injections which have already been done. Not going ahead with that. Frankly, I've no trust in all these 'experts' touting cures.

Another factor in my decision was I have a now relatively low mortgage rate, secured not on condition of any damp-proof work doing on the house as others have experienced. What if further investigations risked my losing that rate by giving the lenders an excuse to pull out? If I then managed to buy the house anyway but with a higher rate I'd end up paying much more in the end than what in my case is likely to be more moderate fixes than the surveyor suggested.

It;s just the fact he said he never says it but he wouldn't buy, it feels alarmist!

 

[OnionRingx]

I feel for you, I went through this last week, though based on only a level 3 RICS report, who diagnosed rising damp in all ground floor walls based on the protimeter readings. No other signs of damp. He recommended a damp survey, and I assumed if I had commissioned one that the surveyor would be doing what yours apparently has not (lifting floor boards). So now you;re having to go to yet another expert, and no estimate? I wonder if these surveyors ever dare to buy homes themselves.

Ok so just got an estimate- all remedial bits around the house around £5k

Plus £12k for Kenwood chemical DPC and tanking replaster.

 

[OnionRingx]

I don't understand how he's made that decision either. It sounds like he's just put more doubt in your head and now you'll have to see for yourself / go ahead with more investigation.

My solution was to view the house again and judge for myself, which I did this week and decided to go ahead. The estate agent tried to recommend a local firm, which having looked at their website I was convinced would try to do the DPC injections which have already been done. Not going ahead with that. Frankly, I've no trust in all these 'experts' touting cures.

Another factor in my decision was I have a now relatively low mortgage rate, secured not on condition of any damp-proof work doing on the house as others have experienced. What if further investigations risked my losing that rate by giving the lenders an excuse to pull out? If I then managed to buy the house anyway but with a higher rate I'd end up paying much more in the end than what in my case is likely to be more moderate fixes than the surveyor suggested.

It;s just the fact he said he never says it but he wouldn't buy, it feels alarmist

I told my solicitor and he didn’t say he had to mention it to lender so I assume he doesn’t think they will care.
I also have the mortgage rate that’s good. All in all I think I want to have a look subfloor and see - hope she allows it- just to not feel like I’m doing something against someone’s better judgement (who recommended DPC and cement plaster)

 

[jmo]

That sounds ok re lender, then. I'll wait to see what others think about the DPC and replastering! Best of luck with it

 

[OnionRingx]

That sounds ok re lender, then. I'll wait to see what others think about the DPC and replastering! Best of luck with it

Tbf I think consensus is DPC is a scam and tanking wall murder lol
From what I gather

 

[Lacan07]

Ok so just got an estimate- all remedial bits around the house around £5k

Plus £12k for Kenwood chemical DPC and tanking replaster.

Well that's the modern way of doing it. You're basically attempting to keep the moisture out. When concrete floors are involved its a bit difficult to comment without seeing it. Where in London is this Onion?

Tbf I think consensus is DPC is a scam and tanking wall murder lol
From what I gather

You'll get a 100 different opinions on this. Personally I think a liquid DPC is probably sound technology but may not be as effective in the wonky, imperfect brick work of certain old houses. The people who sell it however don't really understand how old houses work and tend to prey on the gullible and elderly who occupy them. Tanking is far less of a great idea imho, it will never allow the wall to dry properly (has to breathe both ways) and will probably only ever serve to hide a failed liquid DPC.

Kenwood are well known round these parts for being on the pricey side so I would try and get a few more quotes if you go down this route.

 

[malcolm]

Thanks for adding photos to the opening post. Certainly cement and damp injections will make things worse if anything. Water will always make it's way in from the ground and the wall will get wetter and wetter if it can't dry out and it will find a way out somewhere.

From the stains it does look like there is a bit of damp in the wall. That's going to be annoying so worth thinking about how you are going to fix it..

The ideal Victorian terrace would have had lime mortared brick that evaporated any excess water away to the outside. Inside would have been lime plastered so water from the inside could soak in rather than cause condensation mould problems.

Yours looks like it has been cement rendered outside , and fairly recently judging by the lack of dirt. It will likely ruin the bricks if you try to get that off, so unless you get lucky you would need to remove the cement and lime render if you want the wall to be able to evaporate damp to the outside. That's expensive. Groundworks to lower the outside to a height lower than the inside will be expensive. Those are the two damp fixes that tend to work best.

You might get away with improving underfloor ventilation where you have a suspended floor. There will be bricks that can still breathe down there and getting the water away before it goes up the wall is possible with decent ventilation.

It's a stressful time buying houses. I would be much more comfortable buying a house that still had the original bricks and lime mortar exposed and the original windows. If they can last 100+ years without any real intervention then maintenance is cheap. The modern system of intervention every few years only benefits the building trade.