Help required - purchasing sandstone property energy rating F

[Hrm1987]

Hi there,

I’m looking for some advice. We’ve just put in an offer on a period sandstone property. The agent has just sent the EPC rating which is an F.

It has double glazing, a log burner, loft insulation and timber frame insulation. What comes out as poor is the electric heating and immersion hot water system, and the solid sandstone walls which are assumed to not be insulated.

Now I am a complete novice to this and I don’t understand a lot of it, so please treat me like an idiot.

I can see that it look my best option would be internal insulation. This looks potentially costly and disruptive. Are there also any cladding issues or does that not apply inside?

I’ve also seen about heat pumps but know nothing about them. There’s various things about government grants on everything but no idea if we would qualify.

Could anyone please give me some advice? Is this a costly purchase waiting to happen? Should I be concerned?

I love period properties but now beginning to think it could be a money pit.

Thanks in advance. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[fernicarry]

Sandstone walls but you mentioned timber frame insulation? Can you clarify?

EPC's are a bit arbitrary. The potential rating may be more interesting. What does the report suggest doing about the heating system? Does the report suggest internal wall insulation? It probably does, they always do. Thats certainly a good thing to do, but yes it will be pretty disruptive. There are plenty of threads on here on how to approach that.

Pure electric heating is expensive to run, you just have to compare the unit prices of mains gas and electricity to get an idea of the multiples you will be talking about. The EPC will also contain an estimate of running costs, but that may bare no resemblance to reality, take it as a floor not a ceiling. What sort of heaters does it have? Storage, panel? The wood burner may be cheaper to use than electricity, depends how you source the firewood. Commercial firewood is more expensive that mains gas in my experience so we only use it on the coldest nights as a top up. Then there's the manual labour element of running the stove and cleaning it afterwards.

Heat pumps are really only viable for a building that performs quite well so there may be extensive works required to get to that point such as internal insulation.

Is it on the gas network, or could it be connected? If so then thats probably the most obvious direction to go in. You'd need to add radiators and associated plumbing and possibly find space for a hot water cylinder. This would also be required for a HP so you can to a certain extent future proof it if you oversize versus what you would need for gas.

If you are quite handy and you can spend the time then it may be less of a money pit!

 

[Hrm1987]

Thanks for your reply.

Regarding the timber wall, it says ‘Timber frame, as built, insulation (assumed)’. Perhaps this refers to internal walls?

The property is quite rural so I don’t know about the potential to connect to gas (would happily do this if an option, but not sure how to find out!). Most in the area have oil tanks (is this an option?!).

It sounds like a heat pump is a no go, but internal insulation could work, although be disruptive.

I guess my concerns are two-fold. The cost of running the house with electric and the resale ability. I’m prepared to invest because I love the house, but obviously there is a limit to how much I would spend (circa 15k).

Thanks for any advice, and sorry I’m not particularly well-versed in the ins and outs of this so may not have said the correct things!

 

[Hrm1987]

Oh and it’s a Fischer system currently installed. Need to check if they are panel or storage heaters. I feel the lady who had them installed may have been sold down the river.

 

[mardinor]

To be blunt, you can have period features and character OR higher eco eficiency, but not both. But either route will likely cost you way more than £15K.
Period propertied are wonderful. They are also all money pits. You have to really value the benefits of beautiful surroundings. For me that's (almost) priceless.

Sounds like you have great taste but insufficient budget as yet. Congratulations, the latter can change over time,

 

[fernicarry]

Is it an older sandstone house with a more recent timber framed extension?

If you are willing to do all the right things with air tightness and insulation then a HP could well be a go-er. You'd need to get someone to model the building to see just what would be involved. Even if not aiming for a HP more insulation is always a good idea but @mardinor's points about the difficulty of working around period features are spot on and yeah you'll go through 15 grand quite quickly.

In terms of resale value, talk to the agent who is selling it to you. Did they mark it down this time around because of its horrible energy rating? If not, then renegotiate. If so, then that will tell you how much potential value you can add and you can tailor your spend appropriately.

Mains gas is probably out of the question if its rural. Oil is possible but seems a bit retrograde. Similar thoughts as with a gas boiler, put in a wet system with radiators etc. but oversize it so that it could possibly work with a HP in the future. You'll need somewhere for the tank, uphill of the house, and some distance anyway according to whatever the current regs say. And access for a tanker lorry to get close enough to fill it. A gas tank is another option, similar constraints to oil except doesn't need to feed the house by gravity. Note that heating oil and non-mains gas are not subject to the energy price cap so if there is another crisis you'll be exposed to the full price rise. Find youself a price graph covering the period when UA kicked off to see just how bad that could be.

Fischer are one of those companies that take out full page ads in magazines aimed at those of advancing age and making all sorts of bold claims about how much better they are than the competition. In reality any electric heater is pretty much as good as any other in terms of converting electricity into heat, its just that electricity is so damned expensive.

 

[Hrm1987]

Thank you for this. It does concern me that a period property will be a money pit but I do think the pros of the surroundings outweigh the issues. Appreciate your help. I need to look into heat pumps a little more as I have little knowledge of them.

 

[Drayton]

Thank you for this. It does concern me that a period property will be a money pit but I do think the pros of the surroundings outweigh the issues. Appreciate your help. I need to look into heat pumps a little more as I have little knowledge of them.

I believe there was a programme on Ch 5 about them last night. No idea how useful or accurate it was, I'm afraid.

 

[Glenn586]

Don't let the work and cost put you off too much, it'll be worth it in the end. If the house was newer you would probably upgrading the heating/water anyway.

I don't have a heat pump but I'll give you all I know about running them against our LPG gas boiler:-

They come with noise, not a massive amount but I wouldn't want to be sat next to one in an evening. They are clever in that one KWh of electricity (24p ish) will net you approx 3.5 KWh of output (24p % 3.5 = 6.8p KWh). You can feed it with solar/wind generation to further reduce these running costs. Also many of the electricity tariff providers give you a night time rate 11pm - 5am of around 7p KWh. (7p % 3.5 = 2p Kwh).

Bulk LPG cost for comparison is 6.8p KWh.

If I was going again from scratch I think I'd lean towards the LPG if renewables could be added.

Insulate well.

 

[Hrm1987]

Thank you! Is LPG expensive to install?

 

[Glenn586]

LPG is the same cost as a gas boiler. From memory the only difference is a needle valve that is slightly bigger or smaller. Our new supplier gave us a 2000l underground tank FOC as long as we dug the hole.

 

[a twig]

LPG is also handy to refuel any Zeppelins that get lost in your area - very period