Help and advice for a newbie please!

[Belinda]

Hi, as you can see I'm new to this board, and new to period homes so I need all the advice and help that you kind people on here can give us please.

We've just had an offer accepted on this house - http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-39080779.html which has structural movement (mainly historic according to a structural report from 2007) and needs full renovation as it has been empty since 2006.

Are we mad to take this on? We have a builder on board to do the 'basics' and intend to use specialist people for things like masonry stitching and window restoration. Our budget is £120,000 - is this reasonable in your experience, or completely inadequate?

We are having a full structural survey done next week to get a fuller picture of what needs doing.

The house is Grade II listed and although we have had an informal chat with the Conservation officer about certain changes we'd like to make inside, will we need to get permission for every little change we want to do? What level of work needs Listed Building Consent?

Thank you!

 

[Moo]

Of course you must buy it - it's gorgeous!
(And don't take too much notice of the survey; they always make it sound as though the house is about to collapse around your ears.)

 

[philpjuk100]

Great house! love the pillars and the stairs.Don`t know about your budget,just have to be an optomist and not a pessimist,good luck,phil.

 

[plasticpigeon]

You lucky so and so, that is the kind of place I would love to take on, and a reasonable distance from family and friends for me. Is the roof bowing out at the front? The full structural survey unless done by someone very knowledgeable and sympathetic to historic buildings will probably be bollocks, full of crap about damp and rot and lots of advice to call in specialists (salesmen) but as said, don't let that put you off! I don't know about budget. I'm sure that could easily disappear, but if you take on lots yourself and spend wisely on the important jobs then I'm sure you can get the place comfortable if not finished. If that is wildly optimistic I wouldn't care as the place looks fab.

 

[Roger H]

What a brilliant building. Make sure that the structural movement is historic and has stabilised, or can be stabilised. Make sure the roof is sound and that the gutters and drains work. Then take your time over what to do next. The extent of what will and won’t require listed building consent may depend on the conservation officer. As a rule, decorative work is usually fine without lbc e.g. re painting or papering previously decorated surfaces. Wiring and plumbing are usually ok too, in so far as damage to the original fabric is avoided and that unavoidable chasing out etc.. is made good with matching materials e.g. lime plaster if walls are lime. Like-for-like repair work does not usually require lbc. Best to contact your CO and have general discussion on any works you may have in mind at a very early stage.

 

[Nigel Watts]

Fabulous house! Is it divided in three? If so you seem to have the best bit.

Any change to the interior of a Grade II listed building which changes its character needs listed building consent, but as others have said the interpretation of this is very much down to your local conservation officer. In my experience COs are happy to be consulted (so many people don't bother) and give constructive advice if approached in the right way. Please keep us posted with your progress.

 

[LadyArowana]

That's a great place. It will be a challenge of course, but if you love it and you are prepared for that then it's worth it. As for budgets, you seem to have a reasonable amount, but I would advise doing as much as you possibly can yourselves and save the dosh for the really important big stuff.

 

[Flyfisher]

As Nigel has hinted, it's not clear from the agent details about the house itself and the grounds. It says it is divided into three, which would imply some sort of leasehold and ground rent/maintenance arrangement but it also says it is a freehold sale so perhaps it's the whole house?

Anyway, it really is quite lovely and from the photos just looks in need of decoration rather than any serious structural works. The structural survey will hopefully clarify things but, as Moo rightly says, full structural surveys always seem to take the most pessimistic view possible. We once bought an 8 year old house still under guarantee yet the surveyor could still only bring himself to concede it was 'of adequate construction' :lol:

Also, if you don't carefully brief the surveyor and allow them to carry out adequate investigations, the final report may not tell you very much more than you can see for yourself. For example, clearly visible cracks in the plaster might be reported as "some visible cracking to plasterwork that might be indicative of an underlying structural deficit". That's not to criticise the surveyor because if he is not allowed to investigate further then what more could he say - unless he had x-ray vision? - but such things are not particularly enlightening. I would also strongly recommend you are present during the survey and have a good discussion before and afterwards. They will very likely be far more candid during a discussion than they will be in the final written report!

As for what can be done without Listed Building Consent, well very little really apart from decorating and 'like-for-like' repairs. But, frankly, I would advise discussing even repairs with your CO. It sounds as if you've already got off to a good start with him but don't limit yourself to just asking if you can do the things you can think of. Explain how you wish to use the house and what your needs are - you may find that your CO is able to make suggestions that you haven't thought of and are actually better than your own ideas. That was certainly the case with our CO. Remember, they are experts at this sort of thing and are likely to have far more experience than you. That's not to say you have to follow their advice, but it is freely offered and will be based on year of experience and knowledge so it's certainly worth listening to at the very least.

Budget-wise, it's almost impossible to advise if £120k is adequate in these days when such a sum could easily be spent in just the kitchen and bathroom (not by me I hasten to add!), but unless you have extravagantly expensive tastes I'd feel fairly comfortable about it. A lot will depend on how much DIY you plan to do and how quickly you want it all done. If you've never done anything like this before, try to break things down on a room-by-room basis (plus any exterior works and one-off repairs) and generously estimate the costs of all the main bits of work and materials you can think of. Spreadsheets are wonderful for such things and they can also be used to record the actual costs as the project progresses and provide a very easy way of tracking your progress against budget. Sounds complicated but it really isn't. Don't forget to include some contingency for your optimistic estimates and the things you don't think about! 10% minimum, but 20% is better.

But most of all, enjoy it! It's a lovely looking house and bringing it back to life will be a great adventure and a wonderful achievement. Do please keep us updated!

 

[jackpoint]

Just buy it, after all, what's the worst that could happen :roll:


We found the structural engineer was far more use than the surveyor by the way.

Good luck!

 

[Belinda]

Thanks everyone for your most welcome comments and suggestions.

The original big house was split into three parts many years ago and it is a freehold 'single' house, almost a terraced property but with one behind and one to the side. We've seen inside the house behind as the major cracks are in the party wall with them, they have had their side repaired with masonry stitching and had no further problems. As well as that large internal crack the gable corner has moved downwards leading to cracks in the ashlar stone facing and some very interesting floors inside! When I've worked out how to post photos in this box then you can see the lovely ones of the cracks! We do have a basic report from a structural engineer from 2007 that the vendor requested but it doesn't seem to say much that we can't see ourselves. We'll start with the normal full structural and then probably have a detailed report from a structural engineer.

I've read that nowadays structural movement is fixed by micro-piling rather than underpinning - is this correct, and is it cheaper than underpinning?

I think we'd better get the CO round for a look and a chat then, we want to move the kitchen up from a nearly window-less basement into the long lounge (when the house was split all the useful service rooms ended up in the other two thirds!)

We do think that the house is over-priced for the amount of work that needs doing and the possible re-sale value (not that we would want to sell it) but we don't want a money pit either!

Thanks again.

 

[jocelyn plummer]

Hi and Welcome aboard!

It is a truly lovely property and an enviable project!

Hopefully your Surveyor is a Conservation Accredited Surveyor ( a Surveyor who has taken the extra studies for Conservation) and totally independent of any Agents or Builders that you may have been involved with during the purchase process.

Read the report thoroughly, digest it and if at all possible live in or spend a lot of time in the house getting acquainted with its quirks and foibles.

You might find of use, the Old House Handbook, a practical guide to care and repair by Roger Hunt and Marianne Suhr in association with the Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings. published in association with www.spab.org.uk a good read and helps to put everything into perspective.

The golden rule is do not rush into anything!
The very best of luck do enjoy and keep us posted. We all love pictures!

 

[plasticpigeon]

I'd agree that not rushing into anything is the best advice.

 

[Feltwell]

Welcome. Lovely looking house, and Wem is a nice little town. If you're looking for builders then you might want to read this post:-

http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14073

I seem to remember his builders were from Oswestry way. Be very careful with builders - you'll need one well versed in sympathetic work on old properties, using lime not cement, etc.

As an aside I see that Grove End House in Wem has been repaired, which is great - it was in a terrible state, both the curved bays on the front façade were coming away from the rest of the building, last time I saw it I doubted it would be there much longer. It looked much worse than this picture

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/345058

A nice looking building, especially with the curved sashes. As it looks now:-

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/39872292

 

[MatthewC]

Lovely house!

Are we mad to take this on?

Possibly. But aren't we all?

 

[Belinda]

I'm so sorry - I wrote out a long reply last night to thank you all for your kind comments and helpful suggestions, and telling you more about the house, but it never appeared on the thread. I'll see if this one appears and try again with the extra info. But many thanks for all the advice so far!

 

[PeterI]

I'm so sorry - I wrote out a long reply last night to thank you all for your kind comments and helpful suggestions, and telling you more about the house, but it never appeared on the thread. I'll see if this one appears and try again with the extra info. But many thanks for all the advice so far!

Don't worry the second reply gets moderated and then appears further back up the thread.

I am however very much of the go for it principal, we have interesting cracks with a structural surveyors report saying not worry too much.

 

[Penners]

What a wonderful house! I wonder who the 'substantial Grade 2 listed Georgian gentleman' was. It's a gem of a building and it deserves to be rescued and loved.

Yes, you are of course mad to take it on, but that's a character flaw that you share with most of us on this forum.

However, to be a little more serious - your budget of £120,000 is probably fairly spare, particularly given the risk of structural problems*. However, it's absolutely impossible to know for sure what the renovations are going to cost you until you've finished them! Period properties have a cunning way of turning an apparently straightforward job - perhaps the re-routing of a cable - into a major project: exposing the cable reveals rotted joist ends.... that sort of thing. Try always to keep in mind the cautionary principle that we all observe: any job in a period property will probably cost twice as much and take twice as long as you think it will!

There are many things that you'll need to know before you can even begin to estimate what the required budget will be: what's state of the electrics? How adequate and how old is the plumbing? Is there extensive damp, is there any active infestation, is the roof in good condition... all these things and many more need careful investigation. And of course you need always to keep in mind that any work on the house has the potential to be more costly because of the constraints of its listed status.

Your surveyor's report is going to be absolutely critical in giving you the best possible indication of the works that will be required, and the cost of such works. But don't regard this as anything other than an indication. As Flyfisher has observed, even the very best of surveyors doesn't have X-ray vision, and cannot be expected to see problems that are buried behind walls, ceilings, etc.

Don't just point the surveyor towards the house and wait for his/her report - give him/her a written detailed briefing of what your plans are, what your maximum renovation budget will be, how much work you feel able to carry out for yourself, and so on. That way he/she will have a much clearer picture of the kind of information you need. And don't just choose your surveyor out of the Yellow Pages - take care to find one who is experienced at surveying period properties and is familiar with buildings in that area. Once you've received his/her report, go and spend some time talking to him/her. In my experience surveyors will often give you useful information on an informal verbal basis that they would not be prepared to commit to the formal written report.

However you look at it, this is going to be an enormous project. You'll be able to save yourself many thousands of pounds if you can carry out as much as possible of the work yourself. Don't be frightened by lack of experience - many of us on this forum had no previous skills or experience when we tackled our first period property rescues. You just have to be prepared to learn as you go along and to make up for a lack of experience by doing jobs more slowly and carefully than an expert would. Your local library will be invaluable in providing you with books on anything and everything - electrics, plumbing, plastering, joinery... and so on. I guarantee that you'll be amazed and proud at how many tasks you'll end up being able to carry out yourself!

Make a friend of your Conservation Officer. Talk to him/her before you submit any formal applications for Listed Building Consent, and show him/her that you have the best interests of the building at heart. In my experience, a good CO will give you invaluable help and advice on what works will or won't be acceptable, and can often come up with great ideas to achieve your wishes for the property in an acceptable way. Always remember, however, that the CO's first duty is not to you - it's to the building.

This is a very useful web page, which I suggest you read carefully: http://www.spab.org.uk/publications/look-before-you-leap/

Finally, put this forum in your Favourites! There's a wealth of information to draw on here, often given professionals and/or by people who have hit exactly the same kinds of problems that you've encountered. It's amazing how generous people are with their knowledge and experience, and it's there for the asking.

*Don't forget that a history of structural problems may considerably inflate your insurance premium.

 

[Moo]

That's exactly what I was going to say, but Penners beat me to it.
Another case of "what oft was thought, but ne'er so well express'd"

 

[Penners]

Perhaps also a case of "never use one word when you can ramble on with twenty".

 

[Flyfisher]

Speaking of going on again on again gives me an excuse to post this link to the wonderful Jake Thackray, from the equally wonderful Innes Book Of Records period television programme:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leON-71pRns


Hmm . . . do I detect the hand of Fred Drift at work?