Hello, thank you and what is this door?

[Abi Cott]

Hi, I'd like to thank everyone that has posted on the forum for the last two years, because since I found you earlier today I've been putting my time to good use lol. I'm not completely insane, I think I've only read one post in 10 :wink:

I'm in the process of buying a grade II listed stone built weavers cottage in a conservation area in West Yorkshire, so the information has been invaluable.

My question is fairly simple. Is this door original and what is the style called.

I've tried google and I can't find a matching image with those arch top panels. I think the property is about 1829, and I had a very similar door on my last property (which I'm moderately sure was original due to a matching one around the corner) that was an 1843 brick built terrace in Worcestershire, sadly devoid of any period features except the door.

I'm an experienced diyer with moderate skills but limited funds, so I might be hanging around a fair bit. A lot of my questions have already been answered by browsing, but I guess you might be hearing from me from time to time when I can't find stuff, so I'm pleased to make your acquaintance

 

[plasticpigeon]

It looks original to me and very nice. I'm not sure that style has a special name. It's a four panel door with arched top panels and nice thick bolection mouldings.

 

[Abi Cott]

It's in a fairly poor state, and I know the the last took a bit of renovating. Mainly I want to check the date so I can get the door furniture right. If its original to the property that would make it Georgian/Regency, but if its a later addition it could be Victorian.

One thing I'm fairly sure of is that interior grade aluminium is not the correct style.

 

[88v8]

Agree it could well be original.
I'd be itching to replace the handle and letter box cover.
The latter is of course non-original as there was no postal system in 1829, but I doubt the CO would make you remove it

Ivor

 

[plasticpigeon]

Abi, it sounds like you are probably pretty clued up. I thought that Georgian doors were more likely 6 panel, but I don't know exactly when trends changed, and I'm no expert. I like your door though. I have an odd front door. 6 panel with no planted moldings. All the mouldings are routed into the door rails and stiles. I don't think it is typical for the age of house (circa 1900) but there are enough of these doors left on my road to convince me it is original.

 

[Abi Cott]

I'm reasonably clued up in a book learned sort of way, but my first project house was done with my ex-husband, in fact in some ways it could be blamed for the divorce lol, this one is all mine and so are the headaches and sleepless nights that go with it.

I'm quite taken with the idea of cast iron fittings for the door and a pale blue/grey finish. I think that would be moderately in keeping if the door is original, though a pastel colour would be slightly more upper class than the structure probably ever had originally.

 

[Flyfisher]

I've no idea about the 'correctness' of the door or its originality but I do like the slightly unusual design and wouldn't think of changing it (assuming it is structurally sound of course), though I agree that the door handle should be replaced pronto!

Interesting point about the letterbox not being original because the door itself pre-dates the postal service. This is another example of the challenge of period properties, i.e. a completely authentic and original property from the early 1800s would be completely unacceptable to (almost) anyone today without a certain level of modernisation because, let's be honest, (almost) no one wants to live as most people did in those times (excluding the landed gentry with large houses and a staff to handle all the drudgery!). Electricity and modern appliances are obvious examples.

So at some point in its history, that door would have been understandably retrofitted with a letterbox and so it could be construed as being original, or at the very least honest and genuine. The fitting itself is, of course, a different matter, so perhaps the best compromise would be to retrofit a letterbox fitting in the prevailing style at the time of fitting, which would entail a guess of the date and thus giving a wide choice of options - though not, I'd suggest, brushed aluminium. :wink:

Having said that, In the absence of any firm information, I suppose it is just possible that the letterbox was first installed in the 1970s in which case brushed aluminium could arguably be the 'correct' choice. :lol:

 

[Abi Cott]

To add to the interest, as far as I can ascertain when the building was constructed that probably wasn't the front door. The road it fronts on to on that side wasn't the main road at that time. It wasn't until some years later when the Mills were built that the road was cut through the village.
The original 'front door' would have been on the other side of the property and on the storey above (due to the lay of the land) fronting on to what is now and probably always was a narrow cobbled alleyway. Its hard to track back the evolution of the building and its place in the landscape because it clearly went through many changes in its early years. It was a time of great change in the local landscape and economy.
I haven't made contact with the local antiquarian society yet, because I am yet to exchange contracts, but I certainly intend to in the hopes of finding photographs.

As far as I can tell it was built as a weavers cottage with a kitchen living room on the ground floor. The first floor is constructed of stone flags to bear the weight if the weaving looms, and take advantage of the better light and the third floor would have been an open plan bedroom/living space. Each floor is approximately 15' x 15' although on the ground floor there is a pantry /cellar extending under the cobbled road at the rear(/front)

Opposite the current front door is a group of stonemasons cottages, dated to 1832, so a few years later than the suggested 1829 build date of 'my' property. At some point after this (1840ish) the road between seems to have become part of the main through road to the village, and the ground floor window of the property suggests it was a converted to a shop frontage. So the door in question could have been installed when this conversion took place. Hence why I'm quite keen to date the typology of the door. I was hoping you guys might have knowledge of some door structure bible I could read lol.

Sorry if I'm boring the pants of you with this, its quite nice to put the conundrum down in writing to help me think

 

[Abi Cott]

I've no idea about the 'correctness' of the door or its originality but I do like the slightly unusual design and wouldn't think of changing it (assuming it is structurally sound of course), though I agree that the door handle should be replaced pronto!

Interesting point about the letterbox not being original because the door itself pre-dates the postal service. This is another example of the challenge of period properties, i.e. a completely authentic and original property from the early 1800s would be completely unacceptable to (almost) anyone today without a certain level of modernisation because, let's be honest, (almost) no one wants to live as most people did in those times (excluding the landed gentry with large houses and a staff to handle all the drudgery!). Electricity and modern appliances are obvious examples.

So at some point in its history, that door would have been understandably retrofitted with a letterbox and so it could be construed as being original, or at the very least honest and genuine. The fitting itself is, of course, a different matter, so perhaps the best compromise would be to retrofit a letterbox fitting in the prevailing style at the time of fitting, which would entail a guess of the date and thus giving a wide choice of options - though not, I'd suggest, brushed aluminium. :wink:

Having said that, In the absence of any firm information, I suppose it is just possible that the letterbox was first installed in the 1970s in which case brushed aluminium could arguably be the 'correct' choice. :lol:

I'm planning on converting the extremely damp and currently unusable cellar/pantry into a small but functional modern kitchen (with interesting juxtaposition of the aesthetics) that should leave the more visible ground floor reception room as more in keeping with its original feel. I think there is an inglenook worth restoring from some photos I've seen, and the front window will no longer be blighted by worktop above the sill height

 

[Abi Cott]

If anyone is really interested, this is the rather boring looking property I'm buying

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-43287087.html

To all intents and purposes it's a rather standard looking terrace house, but it is listed and it is in the conservation area and I'm rather pissed off about the number of properly historically important buildings that have been burnt down recently. At least if I buy this one it will mean one if them has a decent chance.

The older sale images of the property give clues as to what might be below the plasterboard, that fireplace is extant, but on the second floor landing which is a bit weird.
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/detailMatching.html?prop=25770087&sale=27094218&country=england

This also gives a few images that suggest the property has undergone a lot of changes in the last few years.
http://m.zoopla.co.uk/property/474-thornton-road/thornton/bradford/bd13-3la/1600910

Being owned by cheapskate landlords has not been kind but there are features there to be rescued.

 

[plasticpigeon]

I was hoping you guys might have knowledge of some door structure bible I could read lol.

Some people here might have a good idea. I can only suggest trawling through architectural books from that era. A lot are available on archive.org such as this one:

https://archive.org/details/encyclopdiaofc00loud

You might spot a door similar to yours in a book of plans like in the link or perhaps in joinery books of the era.

It's a shame that those cupboards have been lost, it makes one wonder what the point of listing is when owners take no notice and councils don't enforce. Never mind, you could live near me in Birmingham where quality is despised and heritage disposed of at will, which is seemingly an attitude endorsed by the planning dept and completely in tune with local policy.

 

[Abi Cott]

I was hoping you guys might have knowledge of some door structure bible I could read lol.

Some people here might have a good idea. I can only suggest trawling through architectural books from that era. A lot are available on archive.org such as this one:

https://archive.org/details/encyclopdiaofc00loud

You might spot a door similar to yours in a book of plans like in the link or perhaps in joinery books of the era.

It's a shame that those cupboards have been lost, it makes one wonder what the point of listing is when owners take no notice and councils don't enforce. Never mind, you could live near me in Birmingham where quality is despised and heritage disposed of at will, which is seemingly an attitude endorsed by the planning dept and completely in tune with local policy.

Thank you for the link, I will have a look later and see what I can find.

At least in Brum they don't just resort to burning it down so they can sell the land

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co....e_fighters_tackle_huge_mill_blaze/?ref=twtrec

 

[plasticpigeon]

At least in Brum they don't just resort to burning it down so they can sell the land

That happens a lot in Brum. Here is one of the more recent examples:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-28574387

Also deliberate neglect, botched deals with developers, and non enforcement of rectification of illegal works, constant continued attack of anything interesting valuable and historic. Just a fe recent examples.

http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/business/commercial-property/two-year-battle-fails-save-martineau-7719758
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/nostalgia/fox-grapes-pub-must-saved-8459422
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/demolition-of-birminghams-historic-island-house-179491

 

[malcolm]

I've got an original 1910 door that the local door expert insists can't possibly be any earlier than 1930. I doubt the door was replaced when it was only 20 years old so it must have been a trend setter.

Yours looks earlier than mine, there are many more layers of paint than I have. My guess from the photo would have been maybe mid-Victorian but I am not any kind of door expert. Original possibly, or an update with the status change as it looks a reasonable status door, or maybe a later arts and crafts idea of how the door should look. It's really cool - there are not many doors made these days that will survive 180 years with a fair chance of another 180 years to come so do look after it.

 

[Zebra]

Hello Abi, and welcome. Rest assured that you are not boring the pants off us, not at all! We are all excited, I'm sure, to see the pictures of your house, and applaud your approach to conserving its features. So most of us reading this, I'm sure, will still have their pants on, and we look forward to seeing more pictures in due course.

 

[Abi Cott]

Hello Abi, and welcome. Rest assured that you are not boring the pants off us, not at all! We are all excited, I'm sure, to see the pictures of your house, and applaud your approach to conserving its features. So most of us reading this, I'm sure, will still have their pants on, and we look forward to seeing more pictures in due course.

Thank you when I get the bit between my teeth with a new project I tend to do it to death, so it's nice to know I'm not boring people. The frustrating thing is that I hope to move in before December, but I won't be able to do much to the property before March. Partly that will be due to the weather and partly due to finances.

The door is something I can do myself and it will really express to the village the change of ownership from slum landlord to owner/occupier, so its something I can do myself that would make a real impact, provided the temperature is high enough for the paint to dry. Having done similar before I won't be attempting it without 3 clear days with the temperature above 10 degrees C.

Not much in the inside can be done until after its been rewired, because I'm well aware the disruption from that can be hell, but the roof flashing on the chimney needs doing first so the rewire may not happen until next summer.

Its basically a six year project with six months at the beginning of doing not a lot! I need the image in my head to keep me going lol.

 

[TheRoost]

Hi Abi, welcome to the forum.
It's a nice looking house at a good price, how well looked after are the other cottages in the row?
hopefully slumlording is not as attractive now as it once was , you might get like minded neighbours buy ing and restoring if not already.

I've seen Victorian doors with chunky mouldings like that before but not sure of the exact period.

Is the wiring really old, or is it dodgy looking?

 

[Abi Cott]

Hi Abi, welcome to the forum.
It's a nice looking house at a good price, how well looked after are the other cottages in the row?
hopefully slumlording is not as attractive now as it once was , you might get like minded neighbours buy ing and restoring if not already.

I've seen Victorian doors with chunky mouldings like that before but not sure of the exact period.

Is the wiring really old, or is it dodgy looking?

The neighbours either side are owner occupiers, but further down I'm afraid slum landlord is the only description for it.

The wiring is recent enough to be on mcbs, but its a small board with no expansion space, and if I'm putting in a new kitchen I will need a new board with RCDs etc. I'm taking out an extraneous bedroom, so there is wiring to remove there, and i want more sockets than are currently present. I also want them recessed rather than surface mounted I've got skirting to repair from the pillock that did it last time and hacked channels into the original skirting. I need wiring in the bathroom for a washing machine, so that's going to be interesting to arrange. I know the earthing is good, so that's a bonus.

 

[jocelyn plummer]

Hello Abbi and welcome! Your house is absolutely stunning and makes my fingers itch to be working alongside you. You seem to have all the right thoughts and enough knowledge to pull this little weavers' house round, into a comfortable mix of original and 21st c--good luck and keep sending the pictures!

 

[CliffordPope]

The latter is of course non-original as there was no postal system in 1829, but I doubt the CO would make you remove it

Ivor

The GPO was founded in 1660 by Charles II
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/royal-mail/7814591/The-Royal-Mail-a-history-of-the-British-postal-service.html
I believe there was a household delivery service before 1829 but no letterboxes because payment was made on delivery. Letterboxes only came in after the invention of pre-paid stamps in 1840.

I notice that neither of the two numbers is centralised. I'd restore the old house number, dimly visible under the paint, but put it symetrically this time