Grade III Listting - what does this mean?

[ineedhelpfast]

Hi-

I just found out (after telling everyone my house wasn`t listed) that in fact,
it is- it is a grade 3 listing. I have tried to figure out what this means in
terms of building an extention. Also I heard that listed buildings receive a discount on their council tax.

I searched my local council for info to no avail.

So, I do appreciate your help.

1) My council referred to HEN8. I wanted to put a vending machine
or kiosk on my property, at my local train station facing the
platform- and they said it would HARM the character of my house! Is
this valid? Is there any way to fight this? I mean, Clapaham junction
and surbiton and Waterloo must be listed and they have vending
machines and kiosks. Also, the next station (Cobham) has a coffee
kiosk so why cant I have one?

2) The station house 1 stop before mine was turned into a resteraunt
and it altered a window and also 1/2 now has a slate roof. To what
extent can the council give me problems? Do I need a planning
specialist? I have a CAD program which Ive used for some drawings
but I am afraid that the council will just keep on saying no?

Thanks for your help. I really need to get out of this building. The council already stated that they will not allow me to change the building
from residential to offices even though living here has been unbearable.

Thanks

Cindy

 

[RobT]

Hi Cindy,

read the information from the link below:

http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/server/show/nav.1373

Then get some professional advice from somebody who is experienced in dealing with your local council.

I'm sure I can remember a 'Cindy' from years a go who was buying a station who posted on here. Is it you?

regards

Rob

 

[ineedhelpfast]

Hello I went to English Heritage and do not see a grade III listing.

This document here:
http://www.elmbridge.gov.uk/documents/retrieve.asp?pk_document=6737

states that my house is of class SA "Buildings mentioned in antiquities of surrey considered to be of at least local historical or architectural interest but are not recognized by secretary of state in formal statutory lists"

So does this mean that it is not really listed since it is not formally recognized? This is not clear from the website link you gave me.

Cindy

 

[RobT]

Hi,

Cindy, the link I posted was to provide you with a general overview of the listing process and its implications. It wasn't meant to be a definative answer to your problem/situation.

You need professional help from a firm/individual with local experience and a good relationship with the local council to help to guide you through your options and their cost implications.

regards

Rob

 

[ineedhelpfast]

Thanks- of course I will speak with the council however, by asking
for help here in effect, I am asking for non-partisan opinions,
suggestions and experience.

So if anyone can give me their 2cents it would be very much
appreciated.

Cindy

 

[Nigel Watts]

I have nver heard of Grade III, and Islington Council has never offered me a discount on the Council tax on my Grade II house.

A number of people in my street of Grade II houses (also a conservation area) have put in for planning permission for extensions of various kinds. We tried for a year to get a two storey side extension, but the Council would not have it. After much negotiation we came to a satisfactory agreement. (in retrospect I think the Council was right from a conservation point of view).

A few years before a neighbour (a rather feisty barrister) had his extension turned down, but appealed all the way to the Secreatry of State, and won.

These things take considerable time and effort. Hiring a local architect or surveyor with local contacts has much to reommend it. We used a local architect.

 

[biffvernon]

I think some Local Authorities have kept a list of houses of some historic merit that are not actually listed. It does not have any legal status but is sometimes informally known as Grade III.

 

[biffvernon]

Local listing - it's a growing thing. Even Tynedale is considering one. It's for locally important buildings which haven't made it onto the statutory lists - which many which deserve protection don't (see Smithfield Market...)

Some may actually have been put forward for listing - EH is years behind. These buildings aren't known as Grade III but some may have been in a past time when there was Grade III listing. Gone now. Not all Grade III made it to Grade II.

Buildings on local lists may not have the statutory controls over them which nationally listed buildings have, but they may have more controls than unlisted buildings. Local lists are usually put out for discussion and democratically adopted by the local authority, who may also democratically adopt certain policies regarding them.

In any case, all buildings are subject to planning controls - nothing is a free for all. In the case of a domestic dwelling, putting a vending machine outside may be construed as commercial use, and that not allowed, Commercial premises - such as railway stations which still operate as such - pay far higher rates of council tax than non commercial. They also pay higher mortgage rates.

Change of use of a building is also subject to planning controls - and can be refused, especially if the building is deemed to be in a residential zone and not commercial.

Just thought you'd like to know all that!

Extensions are of course again a subject for a planning authority to decide on its merits and taking into consideration other factors - especially in a conservation area, or where it could harm the setting of a listed building, overwhelm and be out of character with the existing building, etc etc.

Ev

 

[Johneds]

I think grade iii is an old grade that used to be used for identifying buildings that were not on the statutory 'listed' list but were considered of some merit. Even years ago I don't think these building came under any kind of listed control and since the grade has long been obsolete I can't see how it could be controlled now.

 

[GK]

Well, can you believe it, both Evelyn and I thought this deserved a fuller response!

"HEN8" provided a quick route to the answer via Google.

Your local Council approved a Local List of buildings which are of considerable local interest and yours is one of them. They do not have the same protection as those on the statutory list (GII etc.) but they are covered by specific planning policies, and HEN8 is one of those policies.

Here's the text of HEN8:

===============
LOCALLY LISTED BUILDINGS AND FEATURES
HEN8 BUILDINGS AND FEATURES OF LOCAL ARCHITECTURAL OR HISTORIC
INTEREST, INCLUDED ON THE COUNCIL’S LOCAL LIST, WILL BE
PROTECTED. PLANNING PERMISSION WILL BE GRANTED FOR
DEVELOPMENT PROPOSALS AFFECTING THEM PROVIDED THAT: -
(i) NEW DEVELOPMENT DOES NOT HARM THE CHARACTER,
APPEARANCE OR SETTING OF THE BUILDING;
(ii) A CHANGE OF USE PRESERVES THE CHARACTER AND
APPEARANCE OF THE BUILDING AND ANY FEATURES OF
INTEREST;
(iii) ALTERATIONS AND EXTENSIONS PRESERVE THE FABRIC AND FEA TURES OF
THE BUILDING AND ARE IN KEEPING WITH ITS CHARACTER IN TERMS OF
DESIGN, SCALE AND MATERIALS;
(iv) HISTORIC FEATURES IN EXISTING SHOPFRONTS ARE RETAINED
WHERE PRACTICABLE. ANY NEW SHOPFRONTS SHOULD
REFLECT THE DESIGN, SCALE AND MATERIALS OF THE
BUILDING; AND
(v) PROPOSALS FOR ADVERTISEMENTS ARE COMPATIBLE WITH
THE BUILDING IN TERMS OF DESIGN, MATERIALS, COLOUR, SIZE
AND THE FORM OF ILLUMINATION.
8.17. In addition to the statutory listed buildings, there are many individual and groups of buildings and
associated features, which are of considerable local interest. These are included on a Local List,
which was approved by the Council in May 1999 and will be kept under regular review, and revised
as appropriate. While local list buildings do not have t he same protection as buildings on the
statutory list, the Council will seek to retain these buildings and to ensure that new development
does not harm the character, appearance or setting of the building. Proposals for a change of use,
alteration or exten sion to a locally listed building should preserve the character and appearance of
the building and any features of interest. Historic features in existing shopfronts should be retained
where practicable, and any new shopfronts or advertisements should refl ect the design, scale and
materials of the building.

================
Your refusal to get consent for a kiosk is covered by HEN8 (i). Can you fight it? Well, you can go to appeal and you or your planning consultant can argue that the kiosk "DOES NOT HARM THE CHARACTER, APPEARANCE OR SETTING OF THE BUILDING;" If your argument satisfies the inspector, you win the appeal. Simple in theory, but I wouldn't rate your chances very highly.

Change of use. HEN8(ii) mentions change of use and says "permission will be granted", but you have to satisfy ALL of (i) to (v) and any other policy that might apply as well. So there's nothing there that specifically prohibits it, though the Council may feel that change to offices will affect the building in such a way that one of the HEN8 clauses will kick in, (ii) and (iii) probably, and you'll get a refusal.

If the neighbouring station has had change of use, then I would go to see the file at the planning office. If it is also "grade III", then study the application carefully and see how the requirements of HEN8 have been overcome. If it isn't on the local list, then other policies apply.

Hire a planning consultant by all means but s/he can only work with the adopted polices and try to find a way to overcome the objection. Occasionally another policy may offer some hope, it may even conflict with HEN8, then it's up to you to argue the weight of one policy against another, this is where the planning consultant with sound local knowledge may help though in this case I'm doubtful.

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