Grade II Listing Query

[JamesAxford]

Hi all,

Thanks for having me, this is my first post on the forum!

So, as you know when a building is listed there's a brief description of the property and some of it's notable features. I'm curious as to how this list effects what you can do with a property.

Take this excerpt from a listing for example:

"...Lavatories with yellow tiles, mahogany doors, decorative grills and original fittings."

Now would you have to keep those things? I realise it's a case by case basis but I appreciate and respect this forums opinion.

Thanks for your time,

James

 

[88v8]

Hello and welcome.

Keep them?
Depends.
Amongst other things, how old they are and how integral to the fabric, decorative scheme and history of the building.
And why the building was listed in the first place.
Although regardless of the reason, once a building is listed everything in it is 'caught', a frozen moment in time. Especially 'original fittings'.

You would have to make a case to the Conservation Officer for removing or changing them. Bath taps and baths for example can be restored.
The CO's decision may be idiosyncratic, and from their decision there is no appeal, so if this is a house you are contemplating buying it would be as well to make early contact with your CO before committing. Whether and to what extent the CO is able/prepared to discuss pre-purchase issues, varies from one Council to another.
As you may know, in general the CO's duty is towards the history and integrity of the building, rather than the convenience and tastes of its current occupants.

When dealing with a Period property, bear in mind that you are its temporary custodian, and one can only destroy history once.

The yellow tiles may be a future brick in the road of its history and evolution. ( )

Ivor

 

[plasticpigeon]

Why would you not want to keep them?

 

[Flyfisher]

I'd say it depends, because I've no idea what 'yellow tiles' really means in the context of the house in question. Photos would be very helpful in this regard.

The 'yellow tiles' might be old, original tiles of specific historical interest perhaps with a local connection or they may be cheap garish ceramic tiles from an end of line sale at the local DIY shed. The fact that they are specifically mentioned in the listing would lead me to guess that they have some significance to the listing of the house, in which case consent to remove or replace may well not be forthcoming.

But that is just a guess and only the responsible CO will be able to give a definitive answer.

 

[parkview094]

I've always assumed that a Grade II Listing was purely external and structure of the building. I thought that to protect any fixtures and fittings or decor would need at least a grade II*? Is this an over-simplistic view?

 

[JamesAxford]

Thank you for all your replies, very insightful!

As for contacting the relevant CO, is this a service that you have to pay for?

Would removing the tiles and re-tiling the room with them after it has been insulated etc. be acceptable? And say there are 2-3 toilets (original fittings) could you make a case to keep 1 (as you only need 1) in the house? The decision to not keep some things is purely practical matter, not cosmetic. I would try and salvage as much as possible, I'm just curious about quantities and exceptions.

Many thanks,

James

 

[hipped80]

If you do not want to keep these tiles, I would recommend applying for more alterations/additions than you want when you make your LBC application. The Conservation Officer loves to have input and control. As a tactical approach to getting what you want, you can later concede on some parts of the application (that you didn't want in the first place!).

Other Conservation Officers can be more sympathetic, but it is often a bargaining position.

I had an application to brick up an awkward window at the rear of the property approved (it had been attempted unsuccessfully by two sets of pervious owners). When the CO came to visit I had coincidentally just received back an analysis of lime mortar which he was very interested in, and kept me talking for some time about it. Offer a cup of coffee, be friendly, show your passion for the building and for doing things properly.

As a first step, my advice would be to trawl through LBC applications on your local Council website and see what is approved and denied. This can be very useful, in my experience I have found certain local architects or chartered surveyors are consistently more successful than others - often for very similar applications.

Also, consider including in your application putting right some previous sins; removing cement mortar repairs and redoing in lime always goes down a treat. Don't do the entire building at once, save some areas for future applications!

 

[JamesAxford]

Amongst other things, how old they are and how integral to the fabric, decorative scheme and history of the building.
And why the building was listed in the first place.

The building was constructed in 1928, everything is integral to the internal decorative scheme of the building.

The building was listed because it was on the at risk register, it's been empty for nearly 30 years now.


James

 

[formerly known as]

if a building - whatever the grade - is listed, it is listed in its entirety, internally and externally, including anything within the curtilage that predates the 1st of July 1948. Most list descriptions are brief, because early descriptions were intended to merely allow the observer to positively identify the building; it is only more recent descriptions that cover all that is of interest.

there is a right of appeal - although this is only applicable to formal applications for Listed Building Consent.

estate agents originated the notion that only the external envelope of a building was protected.

 

[Mickey]

Hi James,

Lucky you to have original features, those kind of bathrooms can look amazing (I'm imagining art deco), as others have said and especially since these things are specifically mentioned in the listing then I believe you must keep them but your CO will advise. I didn't have a single original door, floor or skirting board left in this place and inherited a brown plastic bath, brown enamel sink and bidet so am envious of what you have!

Would love to see some pictures and good luck with your project.

Mickey

 

[Roger H]

It's unusual that the list description mentions that level of detail which may indicate that they are of some interest.

Usually bathrooms and kitchens can be changed without listed building consent as they do not generally affect the significance or special character of the building (best to check with your CO that this is ok though). Similarly, decoration of already decorated surfaces would not general require any CO involvement.

 

[Flyfisher]

Here's a good article about listing restrictions including the treatment of 'grey areas'. However, the basic conclusion is always the same . . . . the CO is the only real source of definitive advice about a specific listing building.

http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/listed-building-consent/listed-building-consent.htm

 

[formerly known as]

Exercise care - that article refers to PPG15 and the PPS5 - secondary legislation is under para. 126-141 of the NPPF, although the 1990 act, is still the main legislative document.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

Hi all,

Thanks for having me, this is my first post on the forum!

So, as you know when a building is listed there's a brief description of the property and some of it's notable features. I'm curious as to how this list effects what you can do with a property.

Take this excerpt from a listing for example:

"...Lavatories with yellow tiles, mahogany doors, decorative grills and original fittings."

Now would you have to keep those things? I realise it's a case by case basis but I appreciate and respect this forums opinion.

Thanks for your time,

James

That extract is from the list description for a public lavatory in Guilford Place, London. So in that particular case I'd say they were rather integral to the building.
http://www.heritage-explorer.co.uk/web/he/imagebythemedetail.aspx?crit=&ctid=104&id=10216

 

[Flyfisher]

Bloomin' 'eck Gareth - have you memorised every listed property in the country? :wink:

 

[88v8]

I think the OP is taking the piss :lol:

Ivor

 

[mattice]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[MatthewC]

I've always assumed that a Grade II Listing was purely external and structure of the building. I thought that to protect any fixtures and fittings or decor would need at least a grade II*? Is this an over-simplistic view?

Parkview

No one has responded directly to your question (which is a much repeated error) so I'll make the point clearly: the entire building and its curtilage are all included even by "just" a Grade II listing, regardless of what the listing description says. Although you have to get Listed Building Consent for any changes, the CO is likely to take into account the reasons for listing and whether the things you want to change are of merit, so modern changes should be easily changed. However the CO's decision may appear subjective and arbitrary as they do have a good degree of freedom in this... See the notes above about the lack of an appeal process!

Matthew

 

[plasticpigeon]

Although it depends where in the country you live. If you live in Birmingham a grade 2 listed building can be left to decay for years, set on fire, vandalised either by the owner or by petty vandals, and demolished with complete impunity.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

I've always assumed that a Grade II Listing was purely external and structure of the building. I thought that to protect any fixtures and fittings or decor would need at least a grade II*? Is this an over-simplistic view?

Parkview

No one has responded directly to your question (which is a much repeated error) so I'll make the point clearly: the entire building and its curtilage are all included even by "just" a Grade II listing, regardless of what the listing description says. Although you have to get Listed Building Consent for any changes, the CO is likely to take into account the reasons for listing and whether the things you want to change are of merit, so modern changes should be easily changed. However the CO's decision may appear subjective and arbitrary as they do have a good degree of freedom in this... See the notes above about the lack of an appeal process!

Matthew

I don't know where this "lack of an appeal process" notion has come from. If your application for listed building consent is refused, you can appeal against the decision.