Grade II listed properties.

[jessieknox]

Hi all! I am new to this site and found you all through searching for advice on living in a listed building. I currently have a victorian home and love period properties. We have seen the most beautiful building we wish to sell up and move to - the property is currently offices (vacant) but has planning permission and listed building concent to be converted into a 4 bed town house. Our only stumbling block is that we have no experience with Listed properties and what this really means ie what we can and cannot touch. I believe it is mainly the front of the building and its appearance, interiors and around the back of the property is more flexible. Also, is insurance a lot more, and do we have to have a special mortgage for a listed property? Oh, and if anyone knows of transferring a property to residential use any advice regarding that would be great too! Our estate agent says it is no problem and we can move straight into the property as soon as the sale went through but i don't trust them! Surely the conversion would need to be inspected and signed off as a residential property? The building currently has an upstairs toilet and sink, and downstairs there is another toilet, sink and separate 'kitchen' area - enough space for a kettle a fridge and a sink for washing your mugs in! Any help massively appreciated! Jess.

 

[Penners]

Hello Jessie, and welcome.

The rules about listed buildings are, broadly, as follows:

You may not carry out any conversion or alteration to a listed building without Listed Building Consent from the local authority planning department. However, you are permitted to carry out like-for-like repairs with such consent. If you're in any doubt as to whether your planned work constitutes a repair or an alternation, it's always best to give the Conservation Officer a quick call to discuss it.

Be aware that, when a building is listed, the whole of it is listed - not just parts. This also applies to its curtilege. I should also mention that the penalties for carrying out alterations without consent are considerable.

Applications for Listed Building Consent are free of charge. You'll probably find that the planning department will be able to give you an advisory document, explaining how to set about making your application.

From the sound of your description, I suspect that you'll also have to apply for Building Regulations consent for some of the work needed - things like installing bathrooms, any changes to staircases, windows and so on. This kind of application is not free, I'm afraid, and the cost of it will probably be calculated on the basis of the cost of the work to be carried out.

There is no set inspection regime for work carried out with Listed Building Consent, but there is for Building Regulations work. Again, you local authority will be able to advise you.

I hope that helps.

As to whether you can move straight into the property, I'm afraid I'm not sure about that. But as the building has apparently already received consent for change of use, then I think you should be OK. However, there are people on this forum much more qualified on this type of thing than I am, who will respond, I hope.

One final thought - you might want to check and see whether the change-of-use consent was granted on the basis of detailed plans for the building's conversion. If it was, then I believe you will have to (a) follow these plans, or (b) make a new detailed application based on your own preferred design.

 

[Flyfisher]

Hello Jessie.
I don't know about the procedure for changing the designated use of a building but I agree with your wariness about estate agents. I know they get a bad press and I'm sure they're not all bad but, ultimately, it must be your responsibility to confirm that you'll be able to do anything and everything you want with any property on which you'll be spending a lot of money. Trust, by all means, but verify!

As for listed properties, Penners' advice above is all good. I would just emphasise that it's the Conservation Officer who is responsible for the well-being of the property and, as such, it would be in your interest to contact the relevant CO about your plans as soon as possible. You may be surprised how helpful they are with your plans. After all, one of the best ways of securing the future of a period property is to have it occupied by someone committed to taking good care of it.

It's not really possible for anyone here to give definitive answers about what you can and can't do with a listed property because every one is unique, but if you're sensitive to the property (and it sounds as if you are) and can work closely with your CO then you shouldn't be put off from taking the plunge.

Good luck and please let us know how things progress.

 

[Moo]

Whereabouts is this house, Jessie? If its not too far from Norwich you'd be most welcome to come and see our house (and the before-during-and-after photos) which was offices when we bought it about fifteen years ago.
Unlike yours, it only had one tap and no loos at all (in the course of the year I got very friendly with the cafe over the road and didn't enquire about the builders' sanitary arrangements).
I expect that things have changed since then but we were very lucky to discover that, because the building hadn't been occupied as a dwelling for such a long time, we qualified as something called a DIY Conversion and were able to claim back all the VAT.
But you have one advantage that we didn't have - you've discovered PPUK.
We found the conservation officer most helpful (she made several suggestions that we wouldn't have dared to think of!), and the period between acceptance of our offer and completion turned out to be a boon, because it gave us time to keep popping in and mull over ideas and problems rather than rushing into things we might later have regretted.

 

[inwood]

This sounds very much like a property in Amphtill that's currently offices and has permission for conversion back to a house. Am I close? do I win any prizes?

 

[Joiner]

Well, until they've had their offer accepted and everything is signed off I'm sure they won't want the location identified. Forums (as well as walls) have ears.

 

[Moo]

PS

If you can get hold of a copy of today's Sunday Times, there's an article about reducing VAT on different sorts of building work that may well be relevant to your situation. It's in the Business section on page 10 (a sort of agony uncle item called "Business Doctor").

I'm in a bit of a rush right now, or I'd type the whole thing out for you, but I'll hang on to the paper in case you can't get hold of it.

 

[jocelyn plummer]

This sounds very much like a property in Amphtill that's currently offices and has permission for conversion back to a house. Am I close? do I win any prizes?

Where on earth did you get that information Inwood? Not at all accurate. Are you local?

 

[jocelyn plummer]

I suppose that I can probably set the record straight.

The building to which you refer used to belong to the Mid Beds District Council. The MBDC relocated at great expense to a new build at Chicksands, vacating a grade 2 listed facade, with a large modern office block behind.

A few years on, there are now consents for the grade2 listed building to be 3 offices with a residential development being created from the modern block .


See Central Beds Planning portal: MB/08/01805
and www.storey-homes.co.uk

Personally I have no problems with the redevelopment but fail to see why MB DC needed to move out, they are already complaining that the new offices are not adequate :

 

[Moo]

Just in case you haven't managed to get hold of the Sunday Times, here's a quote:

Q - ....a maisonette with a flat above it. I plan to combine these units and dig a basement to create a single four-storey dwelling. At the builderf's suggestion, to qualify for a zero Vat rating we plan to retain the facade and demolish almost everything else...

A - ...You could instead look at the 5% rate, which is available for a qualifying conversion - one where the number of units changesd; for example, one house becoming two flats. Many of the costs of a qualifying conversion will attract Vat at 5% including: Work to the fabric of the building; Providing water, power, heat or access to the building; Providing drainage; Providing a means of waste disposal....
...For more information, go to the HM Revenue & Customs website and see notice 708, section 7.

 

[Pford75]

Adding to the comments of others...some general thoughts:-

1. If LBC has already been granted, then there should be some plans/details for that consent. I would encourage you to obtain these (if you haven't already) and see how specific they are. Some LBC plans are quite general, others can be very, very specific.

2. Speaking as someone who's brother is an estate agent, I would encourage you to check and check again the details they have provided. It may be that they are relying on information from the vendor (which they haven't checked) or that there was once an informal conversation about 'change of use' and that the council in principle had no objections...or it may be that formal consent has been applied for and granted. There is a big difference between the two and as FF points out, it is your responsibility to check.

3. On mortgages, some lenders will not touch listed buildings but there are plenty that will. Bear in mind that if the property is still officially classed as 'commercial' then this may also hinder the lending process. It will be much easier to get a mortgage if it is already 'residential'. Furthermore, even if you have 'residential use', bear in mind that a mortgage lender will survey the property for it to be 'habitable'. I've used quotes because each lender (or rather their surveyor) will have different ideas of what constitutes 'habitable'. Some will expect toilet, kitchen and bedroom whereas others may look for compliance with building regs.

4. Insurance - there is lots of good advice on here about listed buildings insurance. In fact, there is a broker who advertises on PPUK who specialised in listed building insurance. Yes, it is normally more expensive than non listed buildings...but there are also various traps you have to avoid (you don't want cheap insurance that will not pay out if you need it)

 

[jessieknox]

Goodness I didn't expect all that help!! What a friendly bunch you are, I feel most welcomed! Thank you. We are in love with the property even more every time we see it (which is quite often as we keep driving past to have another look!) We had a roofer take a look at the roof last night and are waiting for a quote for that. So, fingers and toes and everything crossable crossed!
Jess x

Ps No, it's not the building you mentioned with the facade, so no 1st prize given!

 

[Penners]

Well, good luck, Jess. I hope you get your wish.

If you do, there'll always be lots of helpful people here ready with advice, opinions and a load of chatty rubbish.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Well, good luck, Jess. I hope you get your wish.

If you do, there'll always be lots of helpful people here ready with advice, opinions and a load of chatty rubbish.

Steady on old chap - plenty of opinions and chatty rubbish on here I agree, but we don't want any reckless ideas about advice taking hold. :shock:

Jess - a very warm welcome. I know the feeling of driving past again and again to look at a house you've fallen in love with. 8)

 

[Penners]

If you do, there'll always be lots of helpful people here ready with advice, opinions and a load of chatty rubbish.

Steady on old chap - plenty of opinions and chatty rubbish on here I agree, but we don't want any reckless ideas about advice taking hold.

I said "advice". I didn't say "good advice".

 

[robgil]

I am always full of good advice, such as this little gem, ''never go to the supermarket when you have the munchies , if you do you will end up with nothing for your tea but you will be so full of cake and chocolate it wont matter anyway''.