Grade II Cottage

[Phill123]

Hello All,

I am new to this Forum and I discovered 'Period Property UK' it whilst hunting for information relating to a property I am currently in the process of purchasing.

Myself and my partner are first time buyers and have been looking for a Unique, Quirky, Country Cottage in the local area for about 12 Months. Finally we have come across what appeared to be our dream first home and everything appears to be going so well. We had planned out what we wanted to do inside to bring the much needed character back to the cottage. I personally feel that the Cottage has been slightly abused by the current sellers as they have been using it as a holiday let. From our Home Buyers report and independant Damp and Timber Survey it is showing moderate damp throughout the house especially in the 5ft x 5ft Double fireplace located in the centre of the cottage.

Anyway enough on the background. The main reason why I am posting on this Forum is that we discovered from our last search carried out on the property that it is a Grade II listed building! The worrying factor is that the local Estate Agents AND the sellers had no idea that it was listed!!! Also following a visit to the nextdoor neighbour (as the property is semi-detatched) they also have NO idea that the property is Grade II listed.

It would appear that both propertys have NOT gone through their local conservation officers for any changes made:
- Both have small extension to the rear (Our Cottage includes Bathroom & Part of the Kitchen)
- Spot Lights on the first floor ( In both bedrooms)
- The dreaded Double Glazing!!

We have been in touch with local Conservation Officer for the area and he has agreed to come out to view the property. We love the property however are fearful that with it being Grade II listed it could be more hastle than it worth (Getting everything passed). Is it really as bad as some people make out??

I have also attached floor plan of the house. As you can see the property has 1 Bedroom and an 'Open Landing' upstairs - this is purely based on the positioning of the stairs. Does anybody have any expereicne with having structual work being permitted by the local authority? We would idealy like to have the stairs located on the back wall and come up in the middle of the house therefore creating enterance for two seperate rooms. Clearly though at the moment we have a 5ft x 5ft fireplace running through the house. Is there possibilty of removing this? Or is it something we would have to deal with?

Any previous experience / ideas / suggestions/ thoughts on anything would be much appreciated.

Thanks
Phill

 

[Jellyfire]

Hi Phill and welcome to the forum. I own a grade II property, and it's certainly not for everybody. On the whole I'd say if you are willing to adapt to the house rather than adapt the house to you then it's a wonderful thing to live in a listed property. There are certainly many more restrictions you need to bear in mind than with an unlisted property, but they are there to protect the history, fabric and character of the building, so whilst many people see it as a burden, there are very good reasons for it.

Regarding the changes youd like to make, I would be surprised if you were able to move a staircase without a very good reason (I doubt the conservation officer would count separate access as a good reason), unless its a fairly new addition and you didn't need to damage any original fabric. In terms of removing a chimney I'd be amazed if you were given permission for that. I guess it may be feasible to add an extra staircase at the opposite end to the current one, this wouldn't involve removing quite so much fabric, that may not be practical downstairs though.

The fact that the agents and vendors didn't know it was listed is a big worry, the planning dept could insist that anything done without permission is rectified, and as the new owner I'm afraid that would be at your liability. When we purchased our house we purchased indemnity insurance to protect us in such an instance. From memory it was around £200-300, a small outlay given the potential costs involved. I seem to remember having to declare being unaware of any unauthorised works though, so it may be that you wouldn't be able to get it if you are already aware of unauthorised work.

Sorry if all that sounds a bit negative, it's a lovely looking house, and many more knowledgable people than me will no doubt be along shortly to add their thoughts
Regards
Lee

 

[Jellyfire]

Just looking at your pics again, if those UPVC windows were done post-listing and without permission, I wouldn't be surprised if the CO wanted them replacing to match the originals, which I presume the next door property has. They stick out like a sore thumb!

 

[LadyArowana]

I agree that you are probably unlikely to get permission to move stairs and fireplace. Also if the replacement windows were done after listing and without permission then you could be required to reinstate. I would find out how much it could cost for the windows and offer to go ahead with this as a reduction on the purchase price. If the sellers have been made aware of the situation then they cannot withold that information from another prospective purchaser ( well, obviously they can, but not without risking action from anyone that they deliberately mislead ) so I would think that might be good leverage for a negotiation. Good luck, it looks like an attractive property.

 

[vicky whitworth]

Hello,
I don't see how you would get permission, nor do I think you should, to move the fireplace and take down the chimney. Nor do I understand why you would want to if you want to live in an old house. But I can see that the current arrangement upstairs is difficult.
Have you thought about doing something better with the extension on the back? If it is unattractive - and built without permissions - you might win a case to knock it down and start again. You might be able to do two storeys if you made it low-key and inferior to the main house. I'm assuming you want a second bedroom for guests - not for a child. Another alternative would be to put the bathroom upstairs - a downstairs bathroom is a pain in the a**e when you are pissed and need a pee in the night (not that ever happens to me, of course) - and create a mini guest room with shower room and loo down stairs. My neighbour has a similar arrangement to this in a similar sized property. By working with the CO they got permission and what they have done looks amazing because you wouldn't know it wasn't there originally.
You could be the saving grace for this place. Get the UPVC out and the whole house will get its joy back. It looks like its had its eyes poked out at the moment.
Good luck.

 

[88v8]

Hello and welcome and good for you that you're taking a constructive attitude to the listing, and not just putting your fingers in your ears.

I wouldn't be surprised if the fireplace was one of the features for which it was listed. Remove it.... unless it's a modern insertion, which I very much doubt, no chance.
As Jellyfire rightly said, one has to adapt to old buildings the way they are - our house has a bedroom accessed through another bedroom, it's very common in old houses. It also has beams in the bedroom less than 5ft high, and one in the centre of the kitchen sbout 5' 6" (I'm 6') and the kitchen door is less than 5' high. Also, every room involves steps up or down. And it's damp compared to a modern house, even after spending over £10k on some of the causes.

Some of the beams I could perhaps do something about but they're part of the historic fabric, and anyway its been lived in this way for so many years, what makes me so different (other words are available) that I can't cope with it the way it is?
If one wants convenience one buys a Barrat breeding-box.

I'm afraid that many people buy old houses thinking they're like new houses, but 'quirky', or can be made as comfortable and easy to manage as new houses, then they have a reality check, or in pursuit of the current obsession with insulation they end up destroying a lot of the character that led them to buy the house in the first place. One has to ask oneself what one really wants, what one really really wants.
Anyway, hope you take the plunge.

Oh, and damp, well I sometimes think this could be called the Damp and Other Things forum.
I'd get a survey by someone specialising in old buildings who might be able to give you some pointers appropriate to the age of the house. I'd avoid like the plague any 'damp specialist' as they're likely to recommend unsuitable 'remedies' that could be bad for the house.
If the damp is so bad as to be apparent, you also have to be careful that your lender doesn't come up with inappropriate stipulations after their own 'survey'. The less they know about the house's problems the better.

Ivor

PS and the satellite dish will be vanishing as well, after the CO sets eyes on it.

 

[GRADE_II_MONEYPIT]

My first call would be to your solicitors that were used to purchase the house! They seemed to ave failed you in identifying listed status.

My solicitors advised insurance to protect against previous unathorised changes but doubt you will be able to get this after.

Satellite dishes can be alllowed depending on your CO and positioning on the house (most likely rear elevation) but you would need to apply for listed building consent/planning.

The date of your grade II listing is vital, plastic windows before listing = no problem, after = replacement with most likely single glazed wooden so a period design.

 

[MatthewC]

I agree that you are probably unlikely to get permission to move stairs and fireplace. Also if the replacement windows were done after listing and without permission then you could be required to reinstate. I would find out how much it could cost for the windows and offer to go ahead with this as a reduction on the purchase price. If the sellers have been made aware of the situation then they cannot withold that information from another prospective purchaser ( well, obviously they can, but not without risking action from anyone that they deliberately mislead ) so I would think that might be good leverage for a negotiation. Good luck, it looks like an attractive property.

That's the basis I would use as well - you must make then sellers get ALL unauthorized changes authorized in retrospect, and this would identify what restoration changes will still be required for which you will need a large price reduction to cover. Your approach to the CO is the right way to start identifying these, and see where you go from there. However, I wouldn't ask the CO about further changes at the same time (like the fireplace and stairs) as s/he might become less receptive.

Living in a Grade II listed house is not as bad as people say, but you have to be prepared to make concessions; if you actually want a real modern home then do as Ivor says and buy a "Barrat breeding-box" (what an awful phrase!).

Matthew

 

[Keith Bowman]

My first call would be to your solicitors that were used to purchase the house! They seemed to ave failed you in identifying listed status....

I think you will find they have not yet bought the house and it is their own solicitor's searches which have uncovered the listing.

 

[Phill123]

Thank you all for taking time to respond to my post. I have attached some more photographs to give you a better idea of the interior layout.

With response to the staircase it doesn't seem to be the original materials (see picture attached) Does this mean there is more chance of being able to make alterations, or is it the location of the stairs that is of importance? We have done some research into Building Regulations and we understand that this would not comply due to the low ceiling and lack of head room at the top of the stairs (6ft2 got to duck!!) Would they take this into consideration?

Yes it is our solicitors search that has revealed that it is a listed building. We are currently at the enquiries stage, and we are yet to find out if the Sellers have done unauthorised work. We understand that work has been carried out on the property (there is an extension) but we don't know if it was the current Sellers that did this.

The chimney has a fire place on both sides which would not be necessary in such a small area. I wonder if they would consider that the chimney could be made narrower so that it is only a 'fire' on one side?

We are more than happy to keep the character of the property on the outside especially replacing the windows!

 

[Phill123]

More Pictures

 

[Phill123]

More Pictures

 

[GRADE_II_MONEYPIT]

My first call would be to your solicitors that were used to purchase the house! They seemed to ave failed you in identifying listed status....

I think you will find they have not yet bought the house and it is their own solicitor's searches which have uncovered the listing.

Apologies

 

[elizabeth]

We purchased a grade II cottage that had some unauthorised changes. Negotiating the price is possible. Our solicitor also ensured that the vendor took out insurance against prosecution for the unauthorised changes. We are now in the process of replacing the UPVC with wooden windows, as these just do not suit. Once this is done we will all be happier. I hope you are not put off, and that you enjoy your property. Good luck.

 

[Phill123]

Thank you all for taking time to respond to my post. I have attached some more photographs to give you a better idea of the interior layout.

With response to the staircase it doesn't seem to be the original materials (see picture attached) Does this mean there is more chance of being able to make alterations, or is it the location of the stairs that is of importance? We have done some research into Building Regulations and we understand that this would not comply due to the low ceiling and lack of head room at the top of the stairs (6ft2 got to duck!!) Would they take this into consideration?

Yes it is our solicitors search that has revealed that it is a listed building. We are currently at the enquiries stage, and we are yet to find out if the Sellers have done unauthorised work. We understand that work has been carried out on the property (there is an extension) but we don't know if it was the current Sellers that did this.

The chimney has a fire place on both sides which would not be necessary in such a small area. I wonder if they would consider that the chimney could be made narrower so that it is only a 'fire' on one side?

We are more than happy to keep the character of the property on the outside especially replacing the windows!

 

[JoceAndChris]

It looks like a sweet cottage, that with good reading, shopping and guidance you could make beautiful. I'd forget trying for the interior changes you'd like though, sorry. If that's a deal breaker for you it might not be the right house for you after all.

The others have given some really sound advice and interesting ideas.

You get very used to things that at first seem a bit tricky, in fact after two years they just disappear! We pushed to get ours G2 listed which took 2 years, but was absolutely worth it to get a bit of protection for features like the interior arches, marble fireplaces, shutters, wooden panelling, ha-ha, stonework, barrel vaulted and groin vaulted ceilings. Our work here is to sensitively repair the building to a fully functioning state ( stripping away modern cement where necessary) and to recreate a Regency summer house styled interior. It's hard work but so rewarding.

Good luck with the purchase, hope it goes ahead and you and the cottage can be very happy together!

 

[JoceAndChris]

PS my understanding is that Building Regs can't be applied retrospectively. And also that the CO can override the inappropriate requests of Building Regs. I think this is especially true in G1 cases, but that although in ordinary G2 properties it can be a bit of a muddy situation the CO is the one assessing what change might be appropriate for the character of the building.

 

[MdB]

PS my understanding is that Building Regs can't be applied retrospectively.

4 years is my understanding for building regs. i.e. They can get you to change things that have been installed incorrectly in the last 4 years. Could be wrong on this.

 

[tobydog]

Although you weren't aware it was listed when you first saw the property, with listed properties it's always good to fall for the charms of both the outside and inside when you purchase one. It's very difficult to know in advance what you migh be allowed to do to the place and I understand that some authorities are becoming more reluctant to provide free pre-purchase visits and advice. We were lucky with ours because our changes / additions were predominently external and didn't impact the internal integrity of the old house and its structure. Looking at your photos and working out what's what, the fireplace is very much part of the original house and therefore very much structural. I certainly wouldn't mess with it even if I was allowed to. It's hard to tell from the photos how deep the chimney breast is upstairs. The floorplan and photos suggests not as wide as deep as downstairs.

 

[88v8]

Without wishing in any way to put a damper on one's enthusiasm, it does appear to me that the interior has been substantially modernised, with no great sympathy and just a few 'features' still surviving. I see no original woodwork, and the staircase looks new. This is what builders are inclined to do when there is no sympathetic owner to restrain them.
Therefore, while I still doubt that you would be able to alter the chimney breasts, I would think that the rest of the interior might be pretty much up for grabs.

However, if there is still damp in the house after what appears to have been a pretty comprehensive makeover, that is a little worrying.

Ivor