Good and bad news re buildings at risk.

[Manks]

First the good. I noticed on Saturday that Ollerton Hall has scaffolding on it. The Hall and what was left of its curtilage has been decaying for as long as I can recall. Now, however, it appears that something is being done with it.

It was sold by the local council for a sum estimated to be £600k in, I think, 2006 but I haven't found a reliable report of what is actually happening. Perhaps someone else knows?

Now the bad. I have, for some time, been trying to buy the Manor House on Market Square in Bingham. I have been in regular contact with the local conservation officer for two years but it appears that he is in a difficult position.

The council has served numerous notices upon the owner, and has also undertaken repairs itself. However, it has never apparently made a compulsary purchase and is concerned about doing so.

I am also told that someone has offered the owner approximately twice the property's market value but he will not sell. This concerns me because whoever has offered this price clearly doesn't know what the repair costs are going to be. Could be a case that the winner's curse means that again the property will be left to rot.

Manks

 

[Nemesis]

Ollerton has been one of SAVE's longstanding cases, and if work has indeed started that would be terrific. If I find out any more I will post.

With regard to the other - suggest to the local authority it starts the CPO, and you will be happy to take it off their hands as a back to back agreement.

The threat of CPO might just make the owner put it on the open market.

It happened with Allonby Reading Rooms.

 

[Manks]

suggest to the local authority it starts the CPO, and you will be happy to take it off their hands as a back to back agreement.

Done that. The CO has explained to them that I will back to back it and they will have no financial risk, but they are still wary. Typical public sector attitude - i.e. "it doesn't matter what the consequences are so long as I don't get blamed. Therefore inaction is my preferred course of action".

The property used to be complete, including fireplaces the lot. Most now has been plundered and on Friday I saw that an upstairs window is broken and billowing a curtain.

The owner is allegedly a bit...erm... "eccentric" and has, again allegedly, got other properties in similar order.

The motivation of the owner to do nothing is, I suspect, the following:

1. He doesn't need income from the property.

2. It has been doubling in value every 7 years.

3. He knows that the local authority has no balls.

Manks

 

[Nemesis]

It's a hell of a risk for a local authority actually, don't blame them in some ways.

They will be pilloried whtever they do, and even if you offer to buy then it may still have to go on the open market after, as they need to get 'best value'.

And the owner may of course just decide that this would be removing his right to 'peaceful enjoyment' and launch a legal challenge re HRA.

It's not striaghtforward.

Here's the listing and a picture:

http://www.imagesofengland.org.uk/Details/Default.aspx?id=241764&mode=quick

 

[Manks]

Doesn't one have to be resident to claim peaceful enjoyment?

 

[Nemesis]

Not sure. That may need to be tested also! It's still his and CPO isn't simple, believe me, although in the case of a listed building which is neglected it should be.

And local authorities at times have local councillors who are not totally sympathetic to CPO etc. There needs to be a culture of doing something, as at Allerdale.

Here's the SAVE BaR description for Ollerton:


Nottinghamshire

OLLERTON HALL, MAIN STREET, OLLERTON




[Open Image] [Hosted by PhotoGalaxy.com]


Status:
Grade II*
Planning Authority:
Newark & Sherwood District Council

Contact:
Conservation Officer
Newark & Sherwood District Council
Kelham Hall
Kelham
Newark NG23 5QX

01636 650 000


Ollerton Hall is dates from circa 1700. It is a mansion built of brick with ashlar dressings on an H-plan. The eleven bays are arranged in 2:7:2 arrangement. The 3 central bays on the North front step forward and are flanked by single giant pilasters. The centre is marked by a classical door case and has a panelled eared architrave and reeded curved brackets to the segmental pediment.

Inside, Ollerton Hall is a fine early eighteenth century framed stair with vase and stem balusters that were in a poor state of repair even in the 1950s.

Although the mansion is graded II*, it has been included on our register because we have received letters from concerned locals. Tragically, preparatory work for conversion has left the interior gutted, and the building derelict, vandalised and boarded up.

It has previously had various uses. The Sue Ryder Care Foundation bought the property in 1990 and carried out repairs to make it wind and water tight. However changes in their requirements meant that they never used the building. The council subsequently bought it back at the end of 2003 in order that a sensitive restoration of the building and site could be secured and to enable alternative potential uses to be explored. Newark and Sherwood District Council are currently exploring funding and re-use options so that a future can be determined for the hall.

Here's the listing description:

http://www.imagesofengland.org.uk/Details/Default.aspx?id=241910&mode=quick



As it's II* it will be on the EH register, and EH regional office should have more details of any work intended. It will have had to be approved.

 

[Nemesis]

http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/server/show/ConBar.5943


Details

 

[Manks]

I found some internal shots here:

http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=11397

No idea who these people are, I just found it by Googling "Ollerton Hall".

 

[Nemesis]

They are very useful - Urban Exploration - do no damage but 'explore' and photograph derelict buildings. Sometimes it's the only way to find out what state they are in...


It's on here also:

http://www.nottinghamshire.gov.uk/home/environment/heritage/historicbuiltenvironment/oe-heritage-buildingsatriskregister.htm

and looks as though sold:

http://www.propertymall.com/press/article/18415

 

[Manks]

I was sent details of it before the auction. But I hadn't the slightest idea what to do with a place like that. Not only was it buggered beyond all usefulness (OK it was wind and rain proof but other than that just a shell) it is also in an area as rough as a badger's 4rse surrounded by unpleasantness.

Stanford Hall as shown on one of those sites has just been sold to Chek Whyte. Which is a good or bad thing depending upon your opinion of the purchaser.

Manks

 

[Nemesis]

If something is really bad, then a property developer may be its only hope of remaining upright.

http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/S/secret_millionaire/chek_index.html


Not idea about Ollerton, what is intended, but I suspect LBC will have had to be applied for so maybe the local authority can tell you?

 

[Matt Green]

They are very useful - Urban Exploration - do no damage but 'explore' and photograph derelict buildings. Sometimes it's the only way to find out what state they are in...

Especially if you have to quote to survey them. Very useful site indeed, it gives you an idea of what to expect before you go in.


Matt

 

[Pford75]

I am also told that someone has offered the owner approximately twice the property's market value but he will not sell

Sorry to be pedantic...but market value is defined by the price someone is willing to pay. So, by definition, the offer is not twice the market value, but so far, the current indicator of market value. The fact that the vendor did not accept, indicates that they believe the market value is far higher.

Some people make the mistake of equating market value with the price at which it is possible to profitably repair. It is nothing of the sort. For buildings of historical/architectural value, buildings in limited supply (due to location perhaps) or buildings of sentimental value to the vendor....the 'market value' may be far in excess of what they can be proftably repaired for

 

[Nemesis]

And how many of us have fallen in love with something we knew to be a money pit which we may never make a huge profitable return on, but as we will have to be carried out feet first it's not a problem...

 

[Manks]

Pford

I see what you are saying, and perhaps I was sloppy in what I said.

The LA had it surveyed and valued about two years ago. The valuation took into consideration the size and uniqueness of the property and the cost of the works done. The valuation they came up with was about half what the supposed offer is.

The building is not that difficult to value in my opinion. It is attractive but has no garden to speak of, and little curtilage of any type. It faces onto the pavement and the road it is on services a shool and several businesses. The market square that it (sort of) sits on is not particularly pleasant and the town is not all that affluent. Comparables are available.

Market value is, as you point out, what someone is prepared to pay. If the offer made were to be accepted and the price paid, that becomes market value. Until the transaction takes place one is working on estimated market value, and that is what I should have said.

It is my understanding that the offer in question is slightly more than the property is likely to be worth when finished (a mid 6-figure sum). Based upon what I was told I estimated that repairs may come to £150-200k.

Hopefully that clarifies what I was trying to say.

Manks

 

[Pford75]

Yep - I understood what you were saying....and I was being a little pedantic :lol:

But, as Nemesis points out...whatever our own houses are worth, I wouldn't sell at double the price...my daughter was born here, my boys are growing up here...I've laboured blood, sweat (and a few tears) on the house....so there just isn't a price at which I would sell.

It might not apply in your situation, but I think it is far more important to understand the emotions of the vendor than the price they are looking for

 

[Nemesis]

Some are just cussed of course.



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The same owner who had allowed the Reading Rooms at Allonby (an early Waterhouse) to fall into dereliction had also bought the railway station at Silloth. Although unlisted it was a very important part of the history of the town.

http://www.cumbria-railways.co.uk/silloth_bay_railway_towns.html

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/hstchg/allonby1.htm

http://www.cumbriabooks.com/filestore/MORE%20PLAIN%20PEOPLE.doc

He made a terrible mess of partial conversion to housing - one of the worst and most insensitive I have ever seen - then left it to rot too.

http://www.cumbria-railways.co.uk/carlisle_silloth_bay_railway.html

The local authority has CPO'd, and demolished. A small terrace of housing is being built there.


http://www.allerdale.gov.uk/downloads/page117/Update_Autumn%202006.doc

 

[GK]

... market value is defined by the price someone is willing to pay. So, by definition, the offer is not twice the market value, but so far, the current indicator of market value

Isn't the correct market value what several people are willing to pay? There will always be someone who will pay way over the odds for some reason or other, but should that price be paid, it can never again be realised. Mank's offer may well be the true market value, in the sense that it may be a reasonable price to market the property at and gain a sale in a realistic time.

Some speculative property developers will make a good private offer for a unique property but if it goes to open market they simply walk away; it's just not their style to bid competitively, everything has to be on their terms.

The mystery buyer in this case could have made a conditional bid, subject to consent for something or other, which puts the LA in a tricky position. But it happens all the time, and it's largely risk-free for the buyer.

 

[Nemesis]

Yes, a contract is only worth something once signed.

 

[Manks]

Isn't the correct market value what several people are willing to pay? There will always be someone who will pay way over the odds for some reason or other, but should that price be paid, it can never again be realised. Mank's offer may well be the true market value, in the sense that it may be a reasonable price to market the property at and gain a sale in a realistic time.

Auction theory would have it that the winning price is decided by the second highest bidder.

Some speculative property developers will make a good private offer for a unique property but if it goes to open market they simply walk away; it's just not their style to bid competitively, everything has to be on their terms.

Yes, I do. It's not just about wanting everything on my terms though. So often I have had stupid situations where I have made a perfectly good offer for the seller then to consult an agent and be told "oh no Mrs Seller, Manks is trying to rob you, it's worth far more than that". Sometimes they are right, often they are wrong but even when the property hasn't sold, Mrs Seller still thinks it's worth what Fouching and Plum Estate agents said it was worth. Then the property gets withdrawn from market indefinitely.

The mystery buyer in this case could have made a conditional bid, subject to consent for something or other, which puts the LA in a tricky position. But it happens all the time, and it's largely risk-free for the buyer.

Agreed, but the bid was made to the current owner. In my experience someone cranky like this will rarely consider an unconditional bid, let alone a conditional one.

You make some good points and obviously understand what goes on.