Gas fire advice

[JBean]

We have just bought an Edwardian house (1905) and I am delighted to have found this forum! It is the first time we have owned a period property.

The living room has a rather handsome fireplace. It is black, possibly marble, with a metal insert and gas fire. I'm attaching photos. The gas fire plate says: Streamline No 2 Natural Gas High 6.9kW (Gross), various other numbers, and then Sirocco Barnard Castle.

The previous owners tell us they never used the fire. I've had a HETAS fitter look at it and he said it has lost its damper, and that the smoke bomb he used showed smoke coming out of 2 chimneys, so we would need a gas liner. He is advising we put in a wood-burning stove instead.

We know nothing about fires. Any advice or tips would be appreciated. Do you think the marble surround and the metal insert might be original to the house? How easy might it be to add a gas liner - would we need to remove the metal insert, which would mean prising the mantel off the wall? What sort of work might be involved? We're in a smokeless zone, so an open fire is not an option I think, but what else might work?

Apologies if these are not sensible questions!

 

[88v8]

Hello and welcome.

So, a gas-coal burner. No problem using it, in principle. It may not comply with the latest regs, but given that I don't give a hoot for 'latest regs', I'm not the best person to comment.
Having said there's no problem using it, there is a But.

The damper ... was an iron plate which sat in that hole in the back of the insert and closed off the chimney so as to prevent heat loss when the fire was not in use. I would guess that it was removed because if someone turned on the gas and then it didn't light or went out, with the damper absent-mindedly left closed the gas would have nowhere to go and would build up in the house until Boom!
Which would be annoying.
Having said that, in our previous house we had such an installation that we used for 26 years, art nouveau insert, complete with damper. Fortunately, although sometime absent-minded I did always remember to open the damper.

Now we come to the But:

Leaky flues. Gas or not or what, smoke should not come out of two chimneys. This suggests that the parging and pointing of the brick flues has perished so that the flue gases are able to leak through the brickwork between the flues. No big disaster, if you were burning coal, not so good with gas.
The issue with gas is that the flue gases are relatively cool and in the winter when the flues are cold, the flue gases tend to condense in the upper parts of the flue, especially if you have the fire just ticking over.
This results in damp being promulgated through the defective pointing and leads to further deterioration. Again, no big deal, until the damp - which will have picked up old soot - starts to appear as sooty stains on upstairs chimney breasts.

If you had a flue liner, the perished parging & pointing would not matter. You could just use the fire. For this reason, gas inserts should always have a liner, given that the damp will otherwise deteriorate the flue.

However, as you say, the fireplace would have to come out to fit a gather plate.
http://www.topstak.co.uk/relining-old-chimneys/
[bottom of page]

If the fireplace is marble or slate, as it appears, I would look for a fireplace specialist to remove and replace it, so that the chaps fitting the liner can just get on with their part of the job without damaging the surround. While the insert is out, you can measure, and then go round some salvage yards and see if you can find a damper plate if you want one. The plate can be fitted and removed with the insert in situ, by tipping the plate on end. This, as I say, will save heat when the fireplace is not in use.

Alternatively, Stovax make arch inserts almost the same as yours
http://www.stovax.com/stove-fire/insert-fireplaces/classical-arched-inserts/
complete with damper plate.
Although deplorably modern looking.

Here are some more ornamental
http://www.castfireplaces.co.uk/individual-fireplaces/arched-inserts

Or, if you don't want to be bothered with a liner, remove the gas insert, blank off the supply pipe under the floor and just use the original fireplace for coal. The perished pointing is not ideal, but will do no harm, and the inherently higher burning temperatures of coal will ensure that there is no condensation and hence no damp.

My only caveat to this is that with a fire burning you should go into the attic and check that no smoke is leaking through the pointing into the attic space. You will smell it, and if you use a torch in the dark, you will see it. In that case, I would rake out the bad pointing in the attic and redo it. In lime, not cement. Lime, something else to learn about, for the intelligent owner of a Period house.

A woodburner is another alternative, there are some pretty Period-looking options, but you would still have to remove the fire surround to take out the insert, and it would not look 'original', which would be a shame. The woodburner would have to be smokeless-compatible
http://www.stovax.com/faqs/solid-fuel/can-install-wood-burning-appliance-smoke-control-area/
and I have an idea that the HETAS installer would still want to fit a liner.

If you just want the fireplace as an occasional source of heat/ambience, I'd go with the original fireplace/coal option, myself.

Hope to see more of you on the forum.

Ivor

Edit; unusual herring-bone floor

 

[JBean]

Hi 88v8

Many thanks for all that advice! You're right that the fitter said he would want to put in a liner even if we went for a stove. He said that the 'mid-feathers' have gone in the chimney (sorry, should have reported that in my original post). Sadly we can't have an open coal fire as we are in a smokeless zone.

If we stick with the gas fire, I am not too worried about the damper if all it does is stop draughts when the fire is not lit (and I am certainly absent-minded enough to forget to open it before lighting the fire). But removing the fireplace to put in a new flue is less appealing, especially with the risk of breakage. I saw on the link you provided to the topstack site that you can get liners that can be dropped down the chimney, rather than pushed up it. Do you think that might help in our situation?

BTW the unusual herringbone floor you spotted is new - the previous owners had it installed. The rest of the house has more conventional pine boards.

And you will for sure see more of me on these forums!

Thanks again.

 

[plasticpigeon]

Your surround is marbleised slate, so the marble pattern is a paint effect. The insert and surround are very typical for your age of house, so may well be original. However unless your hearth tiles have been painted then they don't look original to me, so the insert and surround may have been off before. The surround will be held together and hopefully held to the wall with plaster of paris. It can be taken off if you are careful but please don't get a hammer to it as it will break. It's best to try and separate it into the 2 legs, the frieze which is the bit joining the 2 legs and the mantle shelf.

I bet you can get a damper flap for the insert. Perhaps one of these might fit.

https://www.castironfires.com/dept.aspx?id=234

I agree with Ivor, it sounds like there is a leak between 2 flues. However so long as the flue gasses arent getting into a room or into the loft then I think it would be ok to use it as a solid fuel fire for wood or coal. Get a CO meter if you do use it just in case. Fitting a stove is expensive, and stoves often don't look great. If you only want to use it here and there I think a stove would be a waste of money. If you want to use the fire as a way of heating the room, then it might be a good idea.

 

[Lime]

The gas fire insert dates from 1967 onwards although it may have been converted to natural gas at about that time so may be a replacement of something that was used before.
Personally I would not use the fireplace to heat the room, you will almost certainly be disappointed.
The fireplace looks original but the backfill to the fireback firebrick is missing from what I can see.
the damper should be easy to replace.
Most dampers are just a flat piece of metal (cast iron originally) shaped roughly slightly larger than the opening with a ring or knob attached to it at the top to be able to close it.
It was probable discarded when the gas insert was put in / converted to natural gas.

 

[88v8]

I saw on the link you provided to the topstack site that you can get liners that can be dropped down the chimney, rather than pushed up it. Do you think that might help in our situation?

BTW the unusual herringbone floor you spotted is new - the previous owners had it installed. The rest of the house has more conventional pine boards.

I like the herringbone - very classy and doesn't look modern, at least in the pic.

Whether the liner goes up or down, unfortunately it still needs a gather to attach to at the bottom, so the fireplace has to come out.

As Lime observed and I didn't, it looks as if the backfill is missing behind the central firebrick. Backfill is a weak cement/rubble mix that helps conduct the heat away from the firebrick.
http://web165.extendcp.co.uk/periodproperty.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=426
Your fireplace has managed without it so far because, as I mentioned, gas burns relatively cool.

You can burn solid fuel, so long as it's smokeless.
https://smokecontrol.defra.gov.uk/fuels.php?country=england
My recollection is that it's a bit of a pain to get lit, but then provides a good heat. Mind you, it's 40 years since we burned smokeless fuel, here and in our previous house it's been wood.

Wood.... your nice floor.... don't know how much experience you've had of builders, but if you have someone to come and work on the fireplace, I wouldn't rely on them to cover the floor. I'd do it myself, even if it means buying a tarp and some dustsheets and protection film.
http://www.temporaryprotection.co.uk/index.php?app=ecom&ns=prodshow&ref=adhesive-hard-floor-surface-protector-600mm-25m&sid=q0n21ux1q3o4gla947c702596448c7e1
Sheets 'n duvets from a charity shop, perhaps, with a tarp on top, cut around the fireplace.

Anything to do with fireplaces generates a horrendous mess and old soot gets everywhere. Installing a liner is best done in summer with the windows open and the room door sealed shut!

Ivor

PS if you edit your Profile to show your approx location, it may help in providing local recommendations.

 

[JBean]

Thanks for all the further advice. I think we are already learning the benefits of not rushing into things with an older house. Hearing the views and experiences of other people is really helpful, and we will need to ponder what to do.

Plastic pigeon - good to know that the surround is marbleised slate. Looking at it again, I can see that it is painted. The hearth tiles however are not painted, and are very regular and so I can see they are probably not original.

Lime - thanks for dating the gas fire insert and the extra information about the backfill behind the firebrick being missing.

88v8 - we've had very little experience of builders so far, so I will take to heart your advice about the potential for mess! We are in Sheffield, but I can't see how to amend my profile to show that.

We need to think some more about this. There are radiators in the room, so we do not need to use the fire for basic heating, but just wanted it as a lovely focal point, and maybe to add a bit of extra heat on a cold evening. I think an open solid fuel fire is going to be too messy for us, and a stove too expensive and inauthentic. So we may take the plunge and get the flue replaced for a gas fire. A friend suggested we look at some sort of electric insert, but I can't imagine that would be anything other than really naff...

 

[kreyszig]

quick aside on the topic of floor protection - we found lining paper taped to the floor to be excellent protection. You can pick it up really cheap, and it doesn't let you slip or slide like around dust sheets.

 

[JBean]

Thanks for all the replies. I did acknowledge a couple of days ago and comment further, but think as a newbie I am on probation and so my comments are moderated - and the last one seems to have got lost somewhere.

Anyway, the extra info on the backfill, the damper, the prospect of mess, the age of the gas insert and the nature of the 'marble' are all much appreciated! The hearth tiles do not look painted (and indeed look very regular and modern), so I guess as plasticpigeon says they are not original.

We will ponder further. An open solid fuel fire is too messy for us I think, and a stove too expensive and inauthentic. So either we bite the bullet and get a gas flue, or - maybe - look at an electric insert if we could find one that looked Ok.

 

[JBean]

We just had a gas safety check and the guy thinks the chimney may be ok - he couldn't see any problem with the mid-feathers or the smoke coming out of more than one chimney. He just said that the fire itself definitely needs replacing. So I am going to find an expert in gas fires and get him / her to have look. Maybe it will be an easier job than we were hoping...

 

[Lime]

On reflection, considering that the back infill has been removed and that would be difficult to do in-situ, the metal fire insert may have been taken out in the past to do it.
With this type of fire, the slate fire surround does not always hold it in place (sometimes it does, sometimes not) and it may be possible to remove the metal fire insert again to put in the chimney liner while leaving the slate fire surround in place.

 

[88v8]

Bear in mind that if you use a gas fire in an unlined chimney, it will cause damp staining upstairs. May take a year or three but it will happen.

One can get a surprising amount of heat from a gas burner. We had one in the bathroom in our previous house and another in the dining room. It takes a while for the heat to build up of course, the flame heats the coals heats the fireback heats the insert heats the room, give it an hour and one is toasty.
Our burners were just burners. No electronics, no 'safety' stuff, lit with a match.

Hope you get it all going in time for Christmas.

Ivor

 

[JBean]

We're still trying to find a local expert to help with the fire but, poking round today in the cellar, think we may have found the damper plus what looks like a grate and fender - confirmation appreciated, especially whether that rather nice piece of cast iron is indeed a damper.

 

[plasticpigeon]

Yes, that looks like a damper to me. The grate is a free standing one but and I think the original would have been screwed to the cast insert but it will work. You would need an ashpan too if using it to burn stuff but it sounds like that is not relevant.

 

[88v8]

Yes, that's a damper. If it's the right one, It may be possible to put it back. I say 'may' because the little feet at the end have to poke downwards into the backfill behind the insert, and if the insert has been refitted without the damper there may be no recesses for the legs to fit into.

If that is the original damper then probably the allied grate is the original as well, which of course makes it easier to host a coal fire.

Now, whether I would reinstate the damper, is another matter. With a coal/wood fire, yes, as the flue will be dry so there does not need to be any airflow when the fire is not in use. However with the gas fire, as I commented before the flue gases are cool and will condense in the upper reaches of the flue and eventually cause damp. So a constant airflow is good because although you will lose heat up the chimney the air flow may keep the flue dry.

Ivor

 

[JBean]

Thanks for the confirmation. We're going to get the chimney swept and then will try and re-attach the damper at least for now, while we decide what to do with the fire in the longer-term. I take that point that we shouldn't use it if we re-instate the gas fire.

 

[JBean]

Just a quick update to say a lovely, very experienced sweep came round today, swept the chimney and advised that the mid-feathers are indeed gone. He has given me details of a local company who can fit a gas flue and new fire. Because it is on an external wall, apparently they may be able to insert the flue from the other side, by temporarily taking out a few stones from the wall, rather than ripping the lovely slate surround off the wall.

The sweep also spoke to me very sternly about not reinserting the damper, and I was able to nod and say that yes I understood that (thanks to Ivor!).