Garden buildings - green house and shed

[overlander matt]

I'm interested to know what style of shed and green house I should consider for a Georgian era house. Any photos of your garden buildings in a traditional style would be very helpful.

I've never built a green house before - I intend to make it a lean-to against a 2m tall garden wall with brick walls approx. 0.6m tall forming the front and sides. I was thinking about having a step down into it to keep a good headroom under the sloping roof. What are the essential design features for a 'period' green house? More glazing bars?

As we're in a conservation area and the building is G2 listed, I believe that planning permission will most likely be needed. I've seen a few questions asked by others about whether anyone really checks up on this and wonder how others have fared if they took the planning route or not. Both structures will be tucked around the back of the house well out of sight.

Thank you in advance for any suggestions.

 

[jdsnape]

with regard to the planning, it will be required (we recently bought a G2 listed house, and I have similar plans). Obviously depending on your area, but going by our area it should be fairly straightforward to get for something in keeping and subservient to the house. If you don't get it, the biggest risk is probably that if you came to sell your buyers might spot that pp wasn't obtained and be scared off/make you apply for it/make you buy indemnity insurance.

If it is 'found out', I think within 4 years, you'd have to apply for retrospective permission. Obviously, if permission was denied then you would have to remove the building.

My understanding is that if the wall was there when the house was listed you may also need listed consent to alter it as it would form part of the curtilage of the listed building - but this all seems like a bit of a minefield so probably worth getting some advice on that.

(this is all based on my research - happy to be corrected if I've misunderstood! Your best bet is phoning your local authority I think)

 

[RBailey]

I don't like a lot of what is done on "escape to the chateaux" but Dick built "restored" a sunken period green house which might be worth a watch if you can find it.

However, you may find that period green house is a bit like period electric lights , i.e. didn't exist at all or only in the very posh houses.

 

[Stevers]

Something like this then?

I built this in about 1999 from a standard Eden Sherbourne greenhouse kit that was supplemented with extra glazing bars from the manufacturer so that I could double them up. Sherbournes were then only supplied in green or bare aluminium, so the specialist green house supplier had it all powder coated white for me. Because the wall (that isn't actually mine) isn't that tall, you step down into it, which I really like. For the same reason I modified it to be what I think is termed 'span and a half'. Lowering the greenhouse makes it look further away in an edge of town garden that is 'just' 60' long.

From a purely horticultural perspective the dwarf walls are a bit of a disadvantage as they reduce light in this south west facing house. Only the front roof is standard (bar the doubling up), and there was a lot of shortening of members to make a full height/full width house look like this. The real nightmare was that almost every piece of the standard glass kit had to be cut down to fit, which I paid the supplier to come and do once it was erected. I wouldn't recommend hardwood cills as they haven't lasted that well. The tall hardwood finials are my own, and I half glazed the door for a more period look. The roof vents are half the size the manufacturer intended due to the doubling up of the glazing bars.

I've paved down the middle of the house forming beds each side and change the soil in these every other year. I grow Gardeners Delight tomatoes and Socrates mini-cucumbers, as well as germinate and bring on other plants for the garden. The box visible in there is my late father's home made propagator doing what propagators do only in March. Even in 1999 this was an expensive exercise, and it wouldn't do to work out the true cost of all those tomatoes and cucumbers!

The greenhouse supplier was so impressed with the result, that he sent a photo to Eden who also liked it apparently. That didn't prompt them to do anything like this themselves, and the Sherbourne model is no longer available.

For laughs and giggles this is a standard Sherbourne with five bays rather than the four I started with:


[Edit] We are in a conservation area, though that house behind isn't. I did have to apply for PP, but it was because there is a road behind that hedge and my greenhouse was judged to be too close to it to pass as permitted development, even though there's a 9' drop down to the road from the garden. Because of the retaining wall and hedge it's only visible from much further up the lane. The planning committee would have preferred stone, but I stood my ground on the use of brick as used for the chimneys on neighbouring houses.

 

[mardinor]

Lost gardens of Heligan have a wonderful lean-to greenhouse, for inspiration. Google has lots of images.

 

[Cubist]

Lost gardens of Heligan have a wonderful lean-to greenhouse, for inspiration. Google has lots of images.

Warning; pedant response coming. Don't you mean the 'Orangery' in the walled garden?

 

[Stevers]

You also asked about sheds, and I built this period style shed not quite within the existing envelope and using parts of an open fronted lean-to shed that had been improvised in the 1960s. I used lightweight concrete blocks for the walls, and the cladding is UK western red cedar from an outfit in Bridgwater. That sash window had been removed from our old house by the previous owner when he fitted French Windows. It needed a lot of work to re-commission since it lacked both hatches, and any of the beads, pulleys or weights.

 

[Athers1971]

I'm not sure what 'period' this is from, but this is the 'greenhouse' that we inherited here. The glass (& plastic) and timber have since gone with the wind and rain, so we're just left with the dwarf wall, oh and the old outdoor loo / potting shed at the end! Not sure what we want to do with this yet. Original thoughts were to rebuild it, but it's way down the to-do list.

This leans up against next doors garage, which was originally an old school outdoor toilet block!

You step down into this to get some head height but it's only 4ft wide and relatively narrow.

 

[Stevers]

When I worked for a timber merchants in the early 80s we sold a heavy champhered glazing bar for roofs, and a lighter champhered one for windows. For sashes we stocked the bottom rail size and the one for tops and sides and the matching glazing bar. Nowadays only the cill sections seem to be readily available. For many years the various glazed verandas and lean-tos that were required could be fabricated from these sections plus the usual planed all round (PAR) timbers. My late father used these profiles to make the light for a cold frame on our kitchen table. It has mortice, tenon and wedged joints and we still have it.

This porch, built from scratch and designed around that odd sized door, used the light chamfered glazing bars for the sides and these had to made for me even in 2004. My maternal grandad built the pictured lean to shop for his market garden using material recovered from the old Victorian pier at Bournemouth - allegedly put together using just an axe! So there was also plenty of scope for re-use of redundant materials in these old glazed timber structures that have almost disappeared now.

 

[Cubist]

And that reminds me... or rather, its reminded the First Lady that I'm still in the doghouse!

During one of our throughly lost without a compass days exploring the ancient woodland/jungle at Heligan the First Lady took a fancy to the giant gunnera plants she saw there and the following year a couple of these rhubarb like monsters were duly installed beside the pond here. Foolishly perhaps I did not expect too much from them but a couple of years after they had established themselves the beasties had begun to reach late summer altitudes of over 6 feet with leaf spans in the same order of magnitude. Whilst I must admit they are very imposing, and with their sharp spiny trunks, rather off-putting for the local wildlife, they became something of a nuisance for me.

Each year, unless they happen to reside in a rain-forest, these plants have to be protected from frosty conditions and protected from snow fall. This is done by lopping off the stems and inverting the leaves to form an umbrella like structure over the base and roots. On top of this other waste such as fern and bracken cuttings and anything else that comes to hand is piled to keep them toasty during the winter months. As the spring rolled around these coverings would then be removed and a little while later the things would begin again to reach for the skies.

Why was I in the doghouse? Seems it was my annual task to keep an eye on the duvet material and top it up from time to time to ensure the plants survived. It also seems that after each winter storm I was also expected to make sure that the bedding material was still in place and doing its job.Somehow, I managed to overlook this duty and, despite repeated reparations since, I'm still in the perishing doghouse.

I mention all this because I was recently reminded of this misdemeanour, again, while being advised that this year 'we' will be establishing what the First Lady calls her 'Poison Garden'.

If by any chance I happen to go 'off air' without announcement, it may be safe to assume that something not entirely unexpected has occurred!

 

[overlander matt]

Something like this then?
View attachment 10988
I built this in about 1999 from a standard Eden Sherbourne greenhouse kit that was supplemented with extra glazing bars from the manufacturer so that I could double them up. Sherbournes were then only supplied in green or bare aluminium, so the specialist green house supplier had it all powder coated white for me. Because the wall (that isn't actually mine) isn't that tall, you step down into it, which I really like. For the same reason I modified it to be what I think is termed 'span and a half'. Lowering the greenhouse makes it look further away in an edge of town garden that is 'just' 60' long.

From a purely horticultural perspective the dwarf walls are a bit of a disadvantage as they reduce light in this south west facing house. Only the front roof is standard (bar the doubling up), and there was a lot of shortening of members to make a full height/full width house look like this. The real nightmare was that almost every piece of the standard glass kit had to be cut down to fit, which I paid the supplier to come and do once it was erected. I wouldn't recommend hardwood cills as they haven't lasted that well. The tall hardwood finials are my own, and I half glazed the door for a more period look. The roof vents are half the size the manufacturer intended due to the doubling up of the glazing bars.

I've paved down the middle of the house forming beds each side and change the soil in these every other year. I grow Gardeners Delight tomatoes and Socrates mini-cucumbers, as well as germinate and bring on other plants for the garden. The box visible in there is my late father's home made propagator doing what propagators do only in March. Even in 1999 this was an expensive exercise, and it wouldn't do to work out the true cost of all those tomatoes and cucumbers!

The greenhouse supplier was so impressed with the result, that he sent a photo to Eden who also liked it apparently. That didn't prompt them to do anything like this themselves, and the Sherbourne model is no longer available.

For laughs and giggles this is a standard Sherbourne with five bays rather than the four I started with:
View attachment 10989

[Edit] We are in a conservation area, though that house behind isn't. I did have to apply for PP, but it was because there is a road behind that hedge and my greenhouse was judged to be too close to it to pass as permitted development, even though there's a 9' drop down to the road from the garden. Because of the retaining wall and hedge it's only visible from much further up the lane. The planning committee would have preferred stone, but I stood my ground on the use of brick as used for the chimneys on neighbouring houses.

Thanks Stevers. Great Greenhouse! The additional glazing bars do make it look from an earlier era in my opinion.

I've thought about using our local joinery to machine a suitable glazing bar for this. I imagine wood will require much more upkeep than aluminium so I need to keep it practical. I've not looked to see whether there are any suppliers offering to make bespoke sizes/panels. I suspect that would be a costly option so I'll probably be back to Plan A and use of the local joinery.

With the need for planning permission, I suspect this won't be happening any time soon!

 

[LadyArowana]

Each year, unless they happen to reside in a rain-forest, these plants have to be protected from frosty conditions and protected from snow fall. This is done by lopping off the stems and inverting the leaves to form an umbrella like structure over the base and roots. On top of this other waste such as fern and bracken cuttings and anything else that comes to hand is piled to keep them toasty during the winter months. As the spring rolled around these coverings would then be removed and a little while later the things would begin again to reach for the skies.

Why was I in the doghouse? Seems it was my annual task to keep an eye on the duvet material and top it up from time to time to ensure the plants survived. It also seems that after each winter storm I was also expected to make sure that the bedding material was still in place and doing its job.Somehow, I managed to overlook this duty and, despite repeated reparations since, I'm still in the perishing doghouse.

Redemption only requires straw, straw rope and a bit of creativity. The First Lady couldn’t fail to be impressed with some traditional Japanese plant protection. https://muza-chan.net/japan/index.php/blog/wara-maki-japanese-garden-artistic-winter-protection

 

[Cubist]

Redemption only requires straw, straw rope and a bit of creativity. The First Lady couldn’t fail to be impressed with some traditional Japanese plant protection. https://muza-chan.net/japan/index.php/blog/wara-maki-japanese-garden-artistic-winter-protection

Errr that kind of flies in the face of the dictate that I must not under any circumstances undertake any creative activities and/or design initiatives unless directly supervised at all times. To do so around here would be rather like lighting the blue touch-paper and not retiring to a place of safety.

 

[overlander matt]

Lost gardens of Heligan have a wonderful lean-to greenhouse, for inspiration. Google has lots of images.

Thanks Mardinor - that's a great example. It looks like there will be a lot of glazing bars needed for this greenhouse!

 

[Stevers]

I've thought about using our local joinery to machine a suitable glazing bar for this. I imagine wood will require much more upkeep than aluminium so I need to keep it practical. I've not looked to see whether there are any suppliers offering to make bespoke sizes/panels. I suspect that would be a costly option so I'll probably be back to Plan A and use of the local joinery.

You can buy aluminium T sections with a cover strip that you fasten over the champhered rafters giving a weather proof and maintenance free solution. On proper old greenhouses the roof glass was gently curved to run the water away from the bars and down the middle of the panes, and of course they had lead paint to make everything last longer, and plenty of cheap labour to do all the work.

With the need for planning permission, I suspect this won't be happening any time soon!

We fell foul of the 'not in front of the building line rule', in that the back of the house is around 24' from the back lane, and greenhouse is much closer to the back lane than that. Because the front of the house is 6' from the front road I could have put it in the other corner without needing PP.

 

[LadyArowana]

Errr that kind of flies in the face of the dictate that I must not under any circumstances undertake any creative activities and/or design initiatives unless directly supervised at all times. To do so around here would be rather like lighting the blue touch-paper and not retiring to a place of safety.

Ah, she’s very strict, even I allowed His Lordship to choose the colour of the front door and the marble for the shelf over the hallway radiator……. but it was under supervision and with power of veto, so maybe not that different after all.

 

[Cubist]

Ah, she’s very strict, even I allowed His Lordship to choose the colour of the front door and the marble for the shelf over the hallway radiator……. but it was under supervision and with power of veto, so maybe not that different after all.

She can indeed be a tough task master but in her, and my own, defence she seldom goes around 'cracking the whip'. I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing though - ho hum.

 

[overlander matt]

You can buy aluminium T sections with a cover strip that you fasten over the champhered rafters giving a weather proof and maintenance free solution. On proper old greenhouses the roof glass was gently curved to run the water away from the bars and down the middle of the panes, and of course they had lead paint to make everything last longer, and plenty of cheap labour to do all the work.

We fell foul of the 'not in front of the building line rule', in that the back of the house is around 24' from the back lane, and greenhouse is much closer to the back lane than that. Because the front of the house is 6' from the front road I could have put it in the other corner without needing PP.

An aluminium T section might well do the trick - I hadn't considered this option. I will PM you with a few questions if that's ok?

As for the behind the front line of the building, I have had to adhere to this with the ongoing 'treehouse' project - unfortunately, as the tree house is too close to the boundary wall on the side of the house, we have to reduce the overall height to 2.5m which makes it a rather sorry treehouse and as such will just be a garden den for the children. Nothing is ever simple

 

[Stevers]

Feel free to PM me. Robinsons offer a poncy Victorian style span and a half greenhouse (same shape and size as mine) for £10k, and I thought mine was crazy expensive! I did find one glazing system for car ports and similar, but its wide at 45mm. My greenhouse was bought through 'The Incredibly Sensible Greenhouse Company' near Winford in North Somerset. It turns out that he's still trading, but is closing down at the end of July. He might be able to advise you on how to get hold of greenhouse glazing bar in lengths, at least one make of which has a capping. If it's the same bloke in charge, he will still be carrying the scars from helping me do mine! Lastly, Ebay is full of unwanted greenhouses of variable quality and usefulness, and you could wait for something that you could adapt to come up there.

 

[overlander matt]

Thanks Stevers. that's very kind of you. I will take a look at the Sensible Greenhouse Co for some ideas before they close. I think I'll end up making my own given the crazy prices of pretty much everything right now. It won't be a project for this year but given the planning permission requirement for this and a shed I will have to have a rough design idea and plan in place.

For now, I must carry on with the tree house that has been downgraded to a 500mm off the ground structure if the rain ever stops here. It's now just a week until the schools break up and I'm behind schedule...