Funny voids and wet corners

[Zebra]

Gosh, my third topic, and I've only been registered a couple of weeks! Proves how helpful this forum is...
So, I have an old house, 17th century or thereabouts, and it has some inaccessible voids either side of the fireplace. The house is solid 9 inch brickwork. The fireplace is big, around the floor area of a bath, and about 5 foot high. I've drawn a quick sketch, attached. There is damp inside the house next to each of the voids, and I think it could be because the voids are filled up with builders rubbish/mud/stuff, which is effectively raising the ground levels inside these voids....
It might be nice to clear them out. However....
One of them seems to have been closed in a long time ago, because it has old lime mortared brickwork on all four sides. The other seems to have been closed in 1969, when the property was extended.
The 1969 one I opened up today, by knocking a hole 9 inches across or so, through the 1969 brickwork. Lo and behold, it was filled up with builders rubbish to about a foot above ground level, and the original outside wall of the house still has the concrete render which I've removed from everywhere else. But I found asbestos in the hole too, so I stopped excavating.
The void near the churchyard is more tricky. The boundary of the property is the back wall of the house, so I can't excavate from that side. I don't want to dismantle the wall of the living room. I don't want to dismantle the wall that's holding the chimney up (although the void may originally have been open on this side - it could have been some sort of bread oven?). So today I carefully took a few bricks out from the side of the woodshed, to try to see what was in the void. But behind the bricks I took out was another wall, and I sort of got the feeling I shouldn't be doing this so I stopped....
Should I just ignore the damp patches and leave well alone?!!!
Many thanks
Zebra

 

[robgil]

Could be soil. I took out 3 overflowing wheel barrow loads of soil when i went from this

To this,

 

[Zebra]

Wow, that does not look like the same room, Robgil!

 

[Penners]

some inaccessible voids either side of the fireplace. ...I think it could be because the voids are filled up with builders rubbish/mud/stuff

Sounds like a fair analysis. I once had the same problem with a bricked-up fireplace, for exactly that reason, exacerbated by the fact that the top of the chimney had been left open, so the rubble got wet whenever it rained.

I found asbestos in the hole too, so I stopped excavating.

What sort of asbestos? If it was asbestos cement board, then you may be able to deal with its removal yourself, if you follow the safety guidelines. Read this: http://www.aic.org.uk/asbestos_cement.htm

behind the bricks I took out was another wall, and I sort of got the feeling I shouldn't be doing this so I stopped....
Should I just ignore the damp patches and leave well alone?!!!

In my view, absolutely not. If there is damp rubble inside a sealed void, you need to do something about it.

Could you perhaps remove just one brick from the second wall and have a peep inside with a torch? That should establish whether that wall is the last barrier between you and the void. You could then use props to remove enough bricks from both walls to enable you to clear out the rubbish.

Once you have both voids clear be sure to insert air bricks in the masonry, giving a cross-flow of air, when you brick them up again. Alternatively, swallow your reluctance to make a mess in the sitting room wall and fully open up both voids, giving you two beautiful and useful recesses flanking the fireplace.

 

[worms]

There are others on here who have posted about finding various side-units to their fireplaces, such as bread ovens and spaces for wash-boilers. I guess there is no evidence of any route to the void from the inside of the fireplace? Or evidence that the fireplace lining is (relatively) new?

 

[MatthewC]

I might have missed something (wouldn't be the first time) but how did you know that they were both voids and not solid? You were obviously right about one but what reason is there that the other is a filled void? I know that an unventilated void filled with rubbish wouldn't help re dampness, but surely the issue is that there is moisture ingress from somewhere? The raised ground level in the churchyard could be one cause, but where has it come from on the other side? Even if you empty the void, there will still be moisture to deal with.

I agree with Penners - open them up and widen the fireplace, if the structure allows it.

Some photos would be nice...

Matthew
http://houseintheenchantedforest.blogspot.com/

 

[Penners]

I agree with Penners - open them up and widen the fireplace

Well, that's not quite what I suggested, Matthew, but I suppose it depends on how the fireplace has been built. If the two voids are within the original fireplace structure, with walls that have been built to narrow down the original big fireplace, then yes - I would consider removing those walls (that face into the firplace from each side).

But the fireplace may be as originally constructed, with the voids created by bricking up niches on each side, outside the fireplace.

 

[Zebra]

You'll never guess what!! What an exciting development I've had today!
I put my brave hat on this morning, and opened up the churchyard side void, from inside the fireplace. The reason I'd been reluctant to do so, was that this was the side wall of the chimney, and I was worried about destabilising the chimney. But looking at it more closely I could see where the stresses and weight was bearing down in the chimney, and felt confident enough to remove a few loose bricks, and to take off the remaining cement render covering that side of the fireplace.
And what a discovery! Clearly bricked up in the 60s, I found a brick lined bread oven - worms you were right!
Went from this:
to this:
from inside:
Obviously I now want to keep this open, as it's beautiful! However, the base of it is about 2 feet off the ground, and seems to be made of stone, which I imagine is placed on top of soil/brick solid infill. So there seems to be no way of emptying the void on that side. Does anyone else have one of these and know what is underneath?
Perhaps just by keeping the brickwork uncovered in the living room and breathable I'll be able to cope with the damp. By the way the reason I'm reluctant to excavate on that side is not because of the mess, Penners - the place is a building site - but because that wall supports the ring beam for the timber frame upstairs..... Perhaps I'll have to put my brave hat on again....
But thanks for the asbestos tips... In the other void the asbestos is not cement but asbestos board, which I understand is more dangerous - remnants of the ceiling of the fireplace which I paid £1000 to have removed a few months ago - it seems the builders in the 60s chucked any remaining bits in this hole - damn!

 

[MdB]

Thumbs up to that find (the bread oven not the asbestos)..

 

[Penners]

that wall supports the ring beam for the timber frame upstairs..... Perhaps I'll have to put my brave hat on again....

Steady! If that wall is doing a structural job you may risk crossing the line from brave to foolish!

The bread oven is a great find! Why not have a hunt around your local architectural reclamation yards to see if you can find an iron bread oven door to fit it.

 

[robgil]

I removed broken asbestos boards and an asbestos flu from my fireplace, I wetted it down first then bagged it. Suit , gloves and mask and being very careful no to break it is the key. Keep it wet.

 

[Schoolmarm]

My stupid sister's partner climbed onto our roof and just yanked the heavy asbestos boiler flue upwards. It must have scraped and scrawped all the way out and I dread to think how much fibre was airborne on the day and even now just sat about in voids.

 

[Flyfisher]

"sat about in voids" is probably safe enough, as long as it's not disturbed. If you're really worried though, it's possible to hire a 'type h' vacuum cleaners specially designed for such hazardous materials (NEVER, EVER use a domestic vacuum cleaner for such things - their filters are too coarse to trap the tiny fibres and will simply blow them throughout the house).

For the truly paranoid (not a bad thing in such circumstances), such cleaners can also be fitted with a long exhaust hose which can be placed outside during use.

Useful info here: http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/guidance/em4.pdf

 

[JoceAndChris]

Very useful, we have some to get rid of too.

Poor marm! :evil: Still, you have lived to tell the tale over 14 years so hopefully our systems can take a little bit of asbestos alongside everything else?

Lovely find of the bread oven, very very nice.

 

[Penners]

My stupid sister's partner climbed onto our roof and just yanked the heavy asbestos boiler flue upwards. It must have scraped and scrawped all the way out and I dread to think how much fibre was airborne on the day and even now just sat about in voids.

:shock: :shock:

 

[Zebra]

So what IS likely to be under the base of the oven? Soil? Brick?

 

[Penners]

Your guess is as good as anyone else's. Soil, brick, rubble... a cache of gold bullion?

 

[MatthewC]

Your guess is as good as anyone else's. Soil, brick, rubble... a cache of gold bullion?

Presumably damp gold bullion - at least it doesn't corrode.

 

[Zebra]

Damp gold bullion - I like that idea. So, presumably there is no way of preventing this from being a wet corner now. Other than light the fire and stick some bread in the oven!

 

[robgil]

You need to find out where the water is coming from.
Or have we been over that already?