Flooring in rubble filled house

[discobarry]

Evening, this evening me and my wife were talking about what to do with the flooring in the front room eventually. At present we think it is some stone slabs and asphalt laid bare earth, the house is 1650's ish. The walls are the big rubble filled type which are about 1 1/2ft thick.

Could we concrete the floor with some waterproof membrane? we aren't sure what the correct thing to do is really so we though we would try suss it out before we were really ready to do it.

 

[MdB]

How damp is your soil?

If your house is in a damp area then fitting a non breathing floor will stop the current evaporation from the floor. You will have a dry floor (if fitted correctly) but the ground under the floor could get significantly damper. This in turn could cause higher moisture levels in your walls. I know this as it was a major issue in our house - and we had concrete block walls. Rubble stone is likely to be worse especially if it has a mud mortar. If so then a breathable floor - limecreate - is what you want to go for as this will continue to allow moisture to evaporate. Be careful though that any floor covering (i.e. carpet) will still allow the moisture to escape.

If your house is on well draining soil and damp isn't likely to be an issue then it won't matter much what you do. Building control will likely want insulation though - which I can recommend.

If listed, I guess your CO will want to have an input on what is best.

 

[discobarry]

Well we have only been here for 8months maybe, but we don't seem to think we have much damp coming up although the left hand side of the gable end of the house is below ground level. So the walls seem to of had a bit of damp in them at some point.

Limecrete sounds interesting, I guess our builders will tell us what is best.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

I wouldn't assume your builders, unless they know what they are about (which isn't always the case) will tell you what's best for the house. If it ain't broke, don't fix it; if it is, then the limecrete route would be vastly preferable to anythng involving a big sheet of plastic under the floor.

 

[masochists-r-us]

Hope you don't mind me asking, but why do you feel the need to lay a new floor at all ? We have stone flags laid on soil in our dining room and they're perfectly fine. The house is not a damp house so very happy to leave them as they are.

 

[discobarry]

Well not especially a new floor but we are deciding on what to do with the floor and i guess certain floor choices may require certain preparations or we may need to be certain we don't have rising damp.

The house at the moment has a carpet which is approx 15years old with cat scratches and stains to boot.

 

[Gareth Hughes]

You don't have rising damp. There's no such thing.

 

[Moo]

We need two things from you, Db - photos (always need photos!) and a rough idea of where you are.
Because your house isn't listed, you don't have the guidance of an on-the-spot Conservation Officer*, but there may well be a forum member or two in your neck of the woods, which could be very helpful.


* although we do have some on the forum

 

[MatthewC]

the left hand side of the gable end of the house is below ground level. So the walls seem to of had a bit of damp in them at some point.

I would suggest that you consider lowering that ground level as a greater priority than doing the floor. Twenty months after doing our external ground levels, our neighbours in the other half of the semi decided that we were right and they have just had 8 inches of earth and concrete removed to stop ingress of moisture (which other people would call rising damp but isn't).

Limecrete sounds interesting, I guess our builders will tell us what is best.

Oh no they won't. If you want limecrete, make that decision yourself and then find a builder who agrees with you! Or do it yourself - I did and it works. Sadly, too many professional builders do not agree that old houses need old methods, and they will try to persuade you that some modern stuff will fix all your problems; all that happens is that you chase dampness around without ever addressing the actual issues.

If you are near the Cotswolds, PM me and you can see my place.

Matthew

 

[discobarry]

Thanks for all the replies, First i'm wondering what the damp is which rises through my floor sometimes? if not rising damp, is the water table high? I live 260m up. Our house is listed, we need consent for some things and also permissions for others (we needed consent for the paint colour of our windows). The builders we use are a very very old local firm who are very in key with the type of property we live in and generally seem really really good at what they do.
We could lower the floor and at some point we will, but we are talking feet and not inches....maybe 3-4ft.

This floor issue is more for next year or the year after but we are planning in advance so we know what we want nearer the time, Upstairs is almost finished from literally the roof downwards.

I'll post some pics soon.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Glad your house is listed and hope you get lots of support from your CO. Gareth is a CO so his comments should be taken seriously.

I spent a year thinking I had damp rising through my 200 yr old stone floor laid on earth but I now know that when humidity levels are high ( ie now) it's condensation hitting the cold floor. Dear husband still won't believe that though. A dehumidifier sorts it out, but is only really needed because this is a basement kitchen.

If you have a nice old floor it's a lovely asset to your home and should be preserved. Looking forward to pics.

 

[vicky whitworth]

Hi, when you said you are considering lowering the floor 3-4 feet in the future you did mean lowering the ground level outside where the house is set into the hill, didn't you? Not the internal floor level? I don't think lowering the floor level inside would be a good idea

 

[discobarry]

Yes i meant outside on one half of the house it is already done but not this half for some reason...anyway some pics of the floor and once outside of the house with it's lovely new windows....

 

[Gareth Hughes]

I can't see much in the way of a problem with the floor that would suggest taking it up and relaying it is a high priority.
The doorstep will be wet if there's no water bar and it normally lives under an impervious doormat.
The obvious issue outside is the high ground level towards the left of the photograph, which appears to be compounded by a hard surface right against the building. Water splash from this seems to have kept the left hand door jamb washed, and is probably contributing to the deterioration of the stonework under the window. I'd wager there's been some cement repointing in the past too.

 

[Greg.Hobson]

Hi db.

Not able to offer anything here except to say that in your picture of the bottom of the stairs, the bit of floor you say may have been asphalted, could it be "terrazzo"? We have this in our hallway running out to the porch and the bottom of the stairs and, from your external pictures, I reckon you may be near us, also on the 260 foot contour but above Holmfirth.

I have looked up about terrazzo and intend to get ours cleaned up (sometime) but it too has flagstones cut into it as well as scratches and gouges from doors that are too low. Depending on the age, I believe Terrazzo is small stones laid onto the top of cement or (later) a resin and then the surface is polished back to reveal the embedded stones. Apparently it does need special cleaning stuff, but it is able to be purchased and there are companies who specialise in the stuff.

BTW, your house looks great.

Greg Hobson

 

[discobarry]

Thanks for the replies again, the house has definitely had some cement pointing at some point and now you mention it about the washed stone....well I would never of thought about it. We are 260m up so we get the worst of the weather but generally it is a very nice place to live!

 

[dalivar]

For some reason our house which is also rubble-stone walled, has a thick slab of concrete making up the (raised) floor in the living room which is in a rubble-stone extention. The adjacent walls are wet and and were covered with gypsum plaster many years ago. The metal beading on the corners has disintegrated and the lowest level plaster is barely hanging on. The whole room looks a state and it feels like we'll never manage to solve it

Would strongly suggest that you do not cover or remove your flags in favour of concrete!

 

[Keithj]

I would suggest a simple rule: if the house is listed, or was built before 1800, think very very hard indeed before using sand-and-cement anywhere around it.

A house that was able to breathe, even if it had some wheezes and blockages, will drown in impervious concrete. Ours had been bodged with cement plastered over the timbers wherever there was a hint of rot. A few years later, the covered timbers had rotted away completely. It should have been repaired properly. It cost vastly more to remove the concrete, prop up the house, and cut in new oak, fit laths, and lime render it. It's in excellent condition now, and the damp problems have gone.

As the experts have said above, there is no such thing as rising damp, other than in the catalogues of firms who want to separate you from your money.

 

[Keithj]

Oh - and where there's higher ground channelling water into the house, or footings, or against the wall...

... a French drain, properly done, is a great solution.

As is going out with an umbrella during heavy rain, to see where the water actually goes.
We have solved a centuries-old (recorded!) damp problem in the local church that way. The gutters did not extend the full length of one of the roofs, and rain poured off that end onto one of the buttresses. The buttress is two to three feet thick, and absorbed centuries of water which gradually percolated through to the inside with the inevitable results. It's been drying out for about six months, and the fresh lime render on the inside is starting to dry out at last. Damp readings are starting to come down off the top of the scale.