floor

[rebeccac]

I did have some very helpful advice on our floor but I've got into trouble so I'm hoping some wise person can advise again.MY OH is blaming me for my indecision!!!!

I'm going to attempt to show some photos of our floor if I can!!
we took out the soil/rocks to a level of about 2ft under previous level.This was a a cement tile floor that was caving in at the middle and we found dry silty soil with limestone boulders.No compacting had been attempted.

Following local techniques we laid a bed of limestone boulders on the well compacted soil.we then covered that in a thick 9 at least 3 inch layer of med limestone gravel.

But help what now!!!If we try to compact the gravel then lay a dry lime/sand mix to lay the old 'bricks' into or make up a limecrete layer and if we do that should we compact the gravel 1st?Our neighbour tells us we need a steel reinforcement mesh now but I dont see thats necessary.We are worried about the floor 'moving' as the gravel is loose.

The house is in Italy about 400 years old build from limestone and brick.

Help!

 

[Penners]

I suggest that local knowledge and experience will be far more help to you than any advice that you can gain from this forum.

Local methods and techniques for dealing with this kind of situation will have been developed over centuries to accommodate the conditions of the area (things like soil stability, ground water, climate, etc.) and may be very different from those that might be used in the UK.

Have you tried asking local people for suggestions on the best solution?

 

[ljn]

A local builder will be able to advise on the local traditional method. Italians have been better at passing the trade down through generations. I guess they'd be reluctant to pass the trad down to some foreigner if there's nothing in it for them.

If not, an architect with knowledge of traditional Intalian buildings. I know one if you need. He speaks good english and is specialised in listed buildings in Tuscany.

 

[middi]

Where restoration and repair of period buildings is concerned there is no difference in the general approach between Italy or England if it is effected by professionals that know their " stuff".

Unfortunately your run of the mill " geometra" or " ingegnere" in Italy is exactly the same as our standard architect or surveyor in England, Unless they specialise they use standard contemporary approach to build or repair any building .Using lots of steel reinforcement and solid cement mixes is as popular as the daily pasta diet. THAT IS A FACT.

If you floor does not suffer from some sort of geological subsidence then a well compacted and hardcored layer should be more than adequate to see you or the house for another 400years. Most of the period houses in Italy, as in England, have done reasonably well before the invention of steel or cement. Unfortunately in Italy is not as easy as phoning the local CO in England and pick their brain, in most cases you have to pay for any expert advise.

It would be wise to speak to people who deal with restoration of " CASE STORICHE" ( historic buildings"
Good luck.

 

[Penners]

Rebeccac - it might help you to know that Middi is a skilled period property restorer, on long-term loan to the UK from his Italian homeland. So he knows what he's talking about.

 

[rebeccac]

Hi
and thanks I'm afraid that's the truth which is why I use this wonderful forum; any builder/geometra I meet throws up their hands in horror as they want us to pour in tons of concrete!!They throw a hissy fit if they can't see us using cement in our lime mortar so no help there!

Any of the old school traditional builders have either retired or are converts to the concrete/reinforced steel route.The only hope on the horizon is in Caslincontrada,in Abruzzo where I 've met an architect who has set up an organisation to promote the use of earth/straw in buildings.The town hall there has an exhibition of this type of architecture and there are a number of buildings still standing you can visit. They are called Casediterra.it. However you would go about restoring such a building with the local building regs in force I dont know,which is why they are just crumbling into dust!

Anyway thanks to you all.When I work out how to do it I'll post some pic,meanwhile I'll update my website with the latest photo's if anyone is interested.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Rebecca - a fantastic website. I used to live in Verona in the north, and have always dreamed of returning. I am deeply jealous of your project!

Are there any big pics of the whole property? It looks wonderful.

 

[chuckey]

I think you have answered your own question. If the original boulders/soil had been compacted your concrete floor would not have broken up. I have an old stone built cottage and its foundation are loose boulders. After at least 200 years there are still voids between the boulders, so the soil can move, so adjacent boulders can move etc. Just because boulders were used does not mean they were the correct material, they were just handy. The success of a foundation is the absence of voids, so that nothing can move. I actually doubt that you can tamp your gravel down properly. Another point is if you put a boulder onto the ground, how much of its under surface is actually touching the ground? - again voids. Remove the boulders and just use compacted gravel.
Frank

 

[Nemesis]

It's been there 200 years. There are buildings in my village which have boulders for foundations which have been there 400 years.

I think this was probably the correct material. I And historic buildings move - no problem. They move with the weather and the seasons.

Frank - I have to say it - you really do talk rubbish at times.

 

[middi]

In defense of the Italian architects and surveyors, from the 60's to now the love for reinforced cement became a necessity due to the amount of people killed in the regular ( every 20/30 years or so) earthquakes.

I remember the 1962 eartquake in the campania region where a lot of people died in their ( poorly build ) historical and provincial houses, I also remember these houses with existing cracks from previous earthquakes. Some new houses were also flattened because of " poor" build quality, in other words, not earthquake proof.

When another serious earthquake hit the same region again in 1982 a number of houses built since 1962 also collapsed, simply because the "glut" of builders which came on the scene skimped on steel reinforcement and not adhered to plans. A number of architects, builders and surveyors had their day in the courtrooms. The law came down on them like a ton of bricks.

Hence a massive paranoia about steel and cement, be it an internal floor or a garden wall. They just (Bl**dy) love it.

Ironically the majority of the better built 2/3/4and 500 year old properties are still standing( usually with upper storey) and unaffected by the various quakes. Ideal for restoration.

They are ( now) being " restored", but the majority are all made earthquake proof. Restoration ,as we understand it, compares as a disaster. This not to say that some individuals go to great lengths to restore correctly, as long as they can fight the cement brigade in power.

The culture of conservation ( from my experirnce anyway) is not as widespread as England. If world heritage fund money is involved you will see restoration work at its best.

( I hope I've not bored you all)

 

[middi]

.....also there is a substantial number of old properties, especially south of Rome, abondoned which were "evacuated" even if in good condition following the earthquakes, government grants of 100% were given to anybody in epicentre of earthquakes to build new homes. The government grants were conditional to the existing buildings to be demolished. Very few people did this.

A number of genuenely left or abandoned old properties built from stone or "tufa" rock ( volcanic rock) are now being restored for " commercial" use. These buildings are pressed back into use with substantial government grants( mainly from the European fund) as " AGRITURISMO", where owners can use them as licensed restaurants as long as they sell at least 80% of their own produce, be it wine or food. Following five years of trading the owners can do pretty well what they like with them.

Apart from the old tiles being reused and few beams here and there to make them look old, the majority are a cement fortress. It is quite sad to sit in one of these local restaurants and hear (naive) people appraise the "locale" ( the local !!)

Not much different to what some breweries have done to some of the pubs, really.

( more trivial P/P information, anyway)

 

[Penners]

I hope I've not bored you all

Certainly not - it's very interesting.

Are all parts of Italy at risk of earthquakes?

 

[middi]

after de devastation and deaths in the northern part of Italy that also ruined some renaissance fresco,s in one of the basilicas pprox. a decade ago , it was assumed that the eartquake "belt" was confined to the south part of Italy (below Rome), running east of vesuvius towartds Etna in Sicily and further south and east towards stromboli and the grecian Ilands.

After this, it is very difficult now to build anything that( technically) does not have a drawing with all calculations of stress shown. As these are standard calculations applicable to all situations ( including garden walls !!!), architects and surveyors ( good or bad) use precalculated computerised downloads and charge anyting up to 12% of the cost of the project to supply these drawings, with the understanding that, in conjuction with the builders, the job is done according to drawings. The planning dpt.B/regs officer is nowere to be seen, exept at the end and final certificate where the architect satisfies themselves that the builder has done a good job and registers the building completed, at the comune

As to our Co equivalent, well, if there is difficulty in this country I will leave you to guess the chaos on this front over there.

I must admit that ( to the uninitiated) these drawing must look like one of Einstein's scrap books.

All this ,done professionally, it works very well. Too self regulated for my liking.

 

[Penners]

architects and surveyors ( good or bad) use precalculated computerised downloads and charge anyting up to 12% of the cost of the project to supply these drawings,

Gulp!! :shock:

 

[middi]

Yes, (Gulp)

Also ( strange to us, here) we would not dream purchasing a property without the assistance of a solicitor or equivalent to look after our interest in this country.

In Italy, the "NOTAIO" (notary), acts for both parties as long as they present relevant deeds, witnesses etc.. as requested.
The buck stops with him as far as the law is concerned.

Possibly that is a good thing (?).

Mind you the temptation must be there if someone tries to by one of his brothers or sisters house which is on dodgy ground.

It appears to work very, very well by en large and it is usually cheaper.

 

[chuckey]

Nemesis, do you recommend voids in foundations then? Around here about 80% of the houses are pre early victorian. Likewise the barns, two of which fell down about 6 years ago and many of them are in a poor state. Their failure mode is that the "downhill" wall slides downhill, then the rest falls down. I guess it was because their foundations were not deep enough to be sitting on stable soil. I think your statement needs clarifying because you can't see the houses that fell down and were re-built. i.e. in 1650 there were 30 houses, two of which have not fallen down (yet).
Frank

 

[Nemesis]

I don't recommend you start messing about with foundations - not without a great deal of input from someone with historic buildings expertise.

That's because period buildngs don't in general have foundations, not in the modern sense. Trying to retrospectively fit can cause more problems that that solves.

I'm not saying all period buildings will stand forever, but many of them have stood a considerable time. Barns may have not been built as sturdily as dwellings, and also a lack of maintenance may have contributed. Ignoring problems until collapse isn't a good plan either.

Around here about 80% of the houses are pre early victorian.

So still standing then?

Many houses were rebuilt as 'improvements' in the late 18th and early 19th century.

 

[rebeccac]

I wanted to say thanks about those of you who replied about our floor. I'm afraid to report that things have not progressed beyond the layer of gravel over the boulders stage! We've been too busy rebuilding and filling in our walls (with lime mortar of course!)

I did appreciate the serious points made about earthquake zones.Our last serious one was in 1933 when a village,Salle was destroyed.Its been rebuilt down the road now.However Abruzzo like many areas of Italy is vulnerable to landslides and slips which mean we could reinforce everything 100 times over but in a bad quake the hillside our house is built on would probably slip anyway either showering us in boulders or carrying us down the valley!! Its true to say that in Italy all professionals are very conservative when it comes to risk taking; unless of course its tax avoidance or driving their bmws!!

Anyway we have also been trying to dry out the room that this floor is in because ouside the house the soil was actually above floor level.We've now dug out a drain (not easy in 40 degs) and laid 5 metres of perforated pipe/gravel then soil so hopefully the walls can dry out.at least my lime pointing had dried so things must be getting a bit better.

I've got a bundle of other stuff to get advice on still so see you again soon!

http://www.myabruzzohome.com

 

[DaveBrigg]

Great looking website Rebecca. I didn't realise that there were still bears and wolves to be found in the wild.